[2014 Mid-Year Tests] England

[Patchey]

I believe Wade would have scored that try. Yarde could have scored that try. Nowell isn't that fast, maybe he would have scored it but I think Mitchell would have got him. Nowell didn't capitalise on his massive break against Wales, I don't remember him making another large break in the championship. May would not have scored that try, he would have run across the try line trying to look for a gap Being honest I don't think he would have scored the try as I don't think he is a natural finisher, watch the Ireland and Wales games, he didn't manage to put away any chance he was given, if Ashton had done that then everyone would be up in arms about it ! Rokoduguni might have been able to score that try, but you can't say May definitely would have scored that try.

Well I guess technically I can't definitely say anyone would have scored it as we'll never know for sure!

May is faster than Ashton and I don't think you needed to be much of a finisher to score that, just the confidence to pin yours ears back and go from your own 22 and the brains to cut back inside. Nowell's breaks in the Wales games were examples of a player not backing themselves while Yarde made a great break down the touchline against Australia last year before being smashed into touch (by Cooper I think, very shameful) because he didn't take a step back in. So I'm by no means saying it was a simple run in try, but Ashton's mix to speed and experience was what made it, not any exception peice of skill.


EDIT: Banahan and Tuilagi would have scored it thought. For sure.

 

[Peat]

May is an interesting one, he has a lovely step off his left foot and some real pace but he never backs himself in the right situation. He is very green and maybe with more experience he might know when to cut inside and when to pin your ears back and go down the line. His running is predictably unpredictable, in a lot of instances if he had just gone down the line he may have scored.

The first run is fantastic, apart from Wade I don't think any of our wingers could have done that. The second time if he runs down the line Hogg is missing the tackle no matter what, he cuts inside and it means he gets done by the cover tackle and we lose the ball. He is electric but he isn't very effective, Yarde and Roko would be in interesting combo, power and pace whilst not being so erratic that their team mates will know where he is going

I don't know why you think Hogg is missing that tackle, he is very well positioned to make it and doesn't have much to do to shunt May into touch. I have no problem with him cutting infield in either case and believe that when a runner is turned over at the ensuing breakdown, you ask the hard questions of his support players and not the runner. If this team mates compete the ruck successfully - England have quick ball on the Scotland line. That's a fantastic position to be in and any man who creates it is effective in my book. We've all seen what happened when he did it against Wales, try next phase. As it is, three England players go in and they can't secure the ball - don't see how you blame May for that.

The thing I'd be most annoyed about with him in that is not spotting Mike Brown on his inside, if he looks to draw and release Brown there's a possible try on. He's certainly raw and has a fair bit to work on but he's getting far too much lazy criticism.

I like the Roko-Yarde idea, although I'll point out that Yarde looked pretty raw in the Autumn as well. With Wade out... I think I would look at Tuilagi in training next...

 

[ratsapprentice]

...just to nip the idea that Roko has no weaknesses in the bud - I can't remember seeing him kick very much.
This isn't necessarily a weakness - but it would be silly to assume he has a decent kicking game only to find out it's a liability.

I think he is flying under the radar somewhat though - he and Yarde are very much the sort of players that I think Lancaster likes.

It'll be interesting to see how he goes in the Army/Navy game this weekend - slightly annoying that he isn't available for the Saints game on Friday but completely right that he is playing for his primary employers!

 

[goodNumber10]

I feel sorry for Ashton, he had a loss of form but for a while he was a shoe in the england shirt - being swapped to Left wiong didnt' help him much either and if you run back through his time in the eNgland shirt he's had some pretty decent moments.

His wrap and pass in the foden try in his frist international was perfect, he has a knack for hunting at the right times, but that only comes form being in a team that you can read and England haven't been that for him int eh past couple of years - that's not his falt, and not Englands faulty they just haven't matched.

On Saturday i thought he looked excellent, and the best moment for me was his break and pass when he didn't score... his first try was excellent, but that told me more about him and his current form.

 

[TheSaffycen]

...just to nip the idea that Roko has no weaknesses in the bud - I can't remember seeing him kick very much.
This isn't necessarily a weakness - but it would be silly to assume he has a decent kicking game only to find out it's a liability.

I think you're a bath fan, so I will ask you about Watson. What is he like ? His strengths, his weaknesses, how likely he will be in the England squad ? And Devoto what is he like ?

I don't know why you think Hogg is missing that tackle, he is very well positioned to make it and doesn't have much to do to shunt May into touch. I have no problem with him cutting infield in either case and believe that when a runner is turned over at the ensuing breakdown, you ask the hard questions of his support players and not the runner.

If you pause it at 40 seconds you can see Hogg has one foot on the floor and is back on his heels. I wouldn't say that he is very well positioned to tackle him into touch. A Wade/Yarde/Rokoduguni would have stepped him and stayed down the touchline, with losing the ball I'm not saying it's his fault i'm saying that we should have scored a try but we end up losing possession.

Look at Yarde at 1.17 he stands up the full-back steps him and gets him on the outside and 2.50 it's kind of the same situation where you have full-back coming across but he knocks him over round the outside. That is what May should have tried to do, but he isn't a natural finisher like Yarde and that's the criticism I put in his direction.

 

[ratsapprentice]

On Saturday i thought he looked excellent, and the best moment for me was his break and pass when he didn't score... his first try was excellent, but that told me more about him and his current form.

That was excellent.

Very rarely does he create opportunities like that though - when on form he's great at receiving them... nicht so good at making them.

I think you're a bath fan, so I will ask you about Watson. What is he like ? His strengths, his weaknesses, how likely he will be in the England squad ? And Devoto what is he like ?

Difficult to say, really... they are both very young.
Both were 19 at the beginning of the season and Devoto is still part of the academy.
As with all young players they are prone to inconsistency - not to an extreme level... but expecting them to play to their best every week throughout the season is a little unreasonable.

Watson is very good in the wide channels - he has an electric outside break and his decision making and execution with ball in hand has been very strong.
His feet are staggering at times and his defense has been very good. He's deceptively big and strong too - 6'2" and 93kg - he makes quite a few metres beyond the tackle.
He has been slightly prone to handling errors - but I'd put that down to him being young and feeling the pressure more than a technical weakness - because his hands have been sublime at some points.
His kicking is decent - definitely good enough for a winger, and not bad for a FB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhk4Ls2I47M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AMlaex2tL8

He'd be well worth his place in the touring squad IMO.


Devoto has been very good too - he's been far stronger as a centre than he was last season as a FB.
He simply doesn't have the pace of an outside back.
His feet are strong, he's a pretty large bloke and he has good hands.
Ultimately I think he's a little raw for England at this point - might be a good shout for the Barbarians game but I'd be suprised to see him tour.
Happy for him, but surprised. I think he's probably got a big pre-season planned with us.

 

[Peat]

If you pause it at 40 seconds you can see Hogg has one foot on the floor and is back on his heels. I wouldn't say that he is very well positioned to tackle him into touch. A Wade/Yarde/Rokoduguni would have stepped him and stayed down the touchline, with losing the ball I'm not saying it's his fault i'm saying that we should have scored a try but we end up losing possession.

Re-watched - would say in both cases the full-back starts wider - Hogg isn't in a great position but is basically there. I have more issues with the fact he let Hogg get him than making the decision... but would suggest we leave it there and agree to disagree.

 

[Patchey]

Don't know if anyone here follows In The Loose at all, but if you do you might have seen this:

http://intheloose.com/2014/04/28/23-players-chance-making-plane-new-zealand-summer/

Thoughts?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Paterson - Nope. Doesn't satisfy my personal grounds for qualification - England is just his opportunity for international caps. Not sure how he's supposed to qualify for England technically anyway... granny?

Ashton - Was always going to be involved. Don't really think he'll do much though.

Cipriani - Definitely.

Waller - Would be solid - might be in with a shout over Mullan. In the long run I can't see him being anything other than a solid backup.

Armitage - Nooooope.

Haskell - Sure. Been in good form, experienced and better than Johnson.

Rokoduguni - Definitely.

Eastmond - Definitely.

Sinckler - Definitely. One of the most promising young English players I have ever seen.

Slater - Good player - unsure as to whether he'll be able to impose himself at international level. Naturellment he's been a little over-hyped due to being Tiger's captain. Can't see him pushing past the incumbents.

Dickinson - Meh. Showed promise at the beginning of the season - has faded somewhat since. Not exactly young either.

Pennell - Not exactly clamoring to see him - but I wouldn't rate Foden as any better currently.

Garvey - Would be great to see him involved but I can't see it happening TBH.

Slade - Would be a good option in the Barbarians game - wouldn't be against him touring, but he's not ready for caps yet.

Hill - See above.

Ward - Would be a great addition to put pressure on Youngs and Hartley.

Wallace - Barbarians - leave the tour to the better prospect.

Tait - Best not to get your hopes up.

Joe Simpson - Would be a great addition - some kinks to iron out, but has all the attributes to be a great player.

Clark - Nope. Simply not good enough.

Fraser - Maybe. He's promising but hasn't played any rugby for ages - is he that promising that he's worth taking in such a green state...? I'm not so sure.

Elliot - Nope.

George - Maybe.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Paterson's Dad is English, I believe.
As fantastically brilliant as he's been for us this season, I wouldn't have him for England either - he ain't English, and we ain't exactly short on locks.


Agree with all your other verdicts, too.

 

[Toby Sweeney]

I think you're a bath fan, so I will ask you about Watson. What is he like ? His strengths, his weaknesses, how likely he will be in the England squad ? And Devoto what is he like ?

Devoto last year was 12.5 stone which is insanely light, not sure how much weight he has put on since then but if he's still anywhere near that weight he cannot be considered for England.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'm almost 100% sure that that isn't true - he's 6'4" and didn't exactly look skinny last year. That weight listing is probably an artifact of his age grade listings.

He's 98kg now anyway.

 

[Patchey]

Anyone else think Toby might be Big Ewis is disguise? MASS!


Devoto looks handy but, IMO, is a bit of a Matt Tait. Could well turn out to be a victim of his own versatility. One for post-2015 now as he isn't exactly getting a load of game time.

 

[ratsapprentice]

What! He's not even got a senior contract yet! :lol:

 

[Toby Sweeney]

Ha, you got me, mass isn't everything just most.

 

[Josht36]

What about Rob Webber? Playing great following his injury

 

[Patchey]

What! He's not even got a senior contract yet! :lol:

He's still on a development one? Mad!

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Considering all this depth we seem to have, I'm suprised the Saxons don't do much better. Must be a gulf in the quality of coaching. U-20 level we are some of the best in the world, seniors we are pretty good and Saxons just always look unconvincing and messy.

 

[ratsapprentice]

He's still on a development one? Mad!

He's still in the academy, pal!

What about Rob Webber? Playing great following his injury

Of course - the list above was just a response to the article Patchey linked to.
Rob should be involved.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I'm amazed that Daly isn't being talked about here, can do everything even kick goals !!! I want to see him have a go at 12/13/15 and I guess that is the problem, cant nail down one spot.