[2014 Mid-Year Tests] England

[ratsapprentice]

I'm not sure how you can suggest that wingers don't get involved under Lancaster - Nowell and May were both heavily influential both in their 10m channel and the middle of the park.

In the 6n Nowell kicked the ball 9 times in 5 games - he ran the ball 46 times and passed 13 times.
In those games he beat 14 defenders and made 292m with 4 clean breaks.

In his last 5 games Ashton kicked the ball 7 times - he ran the ball 34 times and passed 21 times.
In those games he beat 2 defenders and made 170m with 1 clean break.

How many of Nowell's "involvements" were made in his 10m channel?
Those stats suggest Nowell did a ****load of exactly what you are suggesting Ashton was told not to.

 

[Peat]

Edit on peats question My question to you would be what does he have over Yarde, May, Nowell or Watson?

Hey, I hadn't even got involved yet...

Lancaster has been ordering his wings to stay wide. Maybe its been relaxed a little and you do see people coming off them occasionally, but its hardly a thing - its not long tons of our moves are about the winger entering midfield - Lancaster wingers do stay wider. Ashton's support running was notably absent under Lancaster.

If Ashton is back to his best and can produce it in an international environment, and if the set up-up suits his style, he's a live option. Myself, I don't really see that happening.

I also think we've got four young wingers who are about his quality level and who have more upside. I'd like to see us keep the faith there.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Ashton still doesn't convince me. There is no doubt he is great for Sarries but being good at club level doesn't mean you will be good for England. I wouldn't be opposed to him rejoining on some smaller international to see if he has anything to contribute now but not for major games and certainly not at the expense of some of our new wingers.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Some good performances in the Amil semi today.

Webber, Haskell, Rokoduguni, Ford, Joseph, Daly and Garvey all played well.

I thought Simpson had a mixed game - some very strong box-kicking and good passing - but often took an age to actually get the ball out.
As with lineouts - not sure who is to blame there.... the passer or the receiver?!

 

[TheSaffycen]

Hey, I hadn't even got involved yet...

Woops meant Patchey not Peat

In the 6n Nowell kicked the ball 9 times in 5 games - he ran the ball 46 times and passed 13 times.
In those games he beat 14 defenders and made 292m with 4 clean breaks.

In his last 5 games Ashton kicked the ball 7 times - he ran the ball 34 times and passed 21 times.
In those games he beat 2 defenders and made 170m with 1 clean break.

How many of Nowell's "involvements" were made in his 10m channel?
Those stats suggest Nowell did a ****load of exactly what you are suggesting Ashton was told not to.

He said how he was told to play in an article I read, I will try to find it but I can't remember what paper it was. But yes he was told too stay on the wings and then this six nations we opened up, exactly the style of play that suits him and with a 10 and 12 that can pass and go to the line he would be brilliant/ he might be crap but it would be worth it IMHO. I put it like this lets play eastmond as a crash ball centre and Tuilagi as a creative ball playing centre, if they then do badly how can you blame players who can't play in that style. All i'm saying is that under Johnson he scored tries for fun scoring 14 tries, in two years under Lancaster he has scored 3, at the same time being the highest HCup scorer this year.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Your argument would hold more weight if his try scoring rate in domestic rugby hadn't fallen by two thirds in the same period.

Telling a winger to stay on the wing is not the same as telling a 5'7" player to crash the ball up - the latter is not realistic.
What is realistic is to ask a winger to beat defenders in a wide channel - something Chris has completely failed to do.

Your argument that England have started to play more expansively ignores the fact that the new wingers have themselves aided that expansiveness - they have not simply benefited from the work of those inside them.

Let's say that you are correct and that if only he was allowed to roam off his wing then he would be scoring tries for fun - it would be irresponsible to change England's entire gameplan in order to suit one player.
You'd be ****ed if he was injured. I just see his lack of tries for England as a symptom of the fact that we've been playing against less teams who we are able to steamroller in the last two years.
And just so that you are aware - if you weren't already: 11 of his 18 international tries have been scored against Italy, Georgia, Romania and Scotland.

And also - just so we're clear - my stance on Chris isn't a manifestation of some personal dislike.
He seems like a decent enough guy - a little grating - but there isn't any sort of vendetta here.

On the subject of wingers - http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/223119.html

103kg

 

[Da Grappla]

Ashton is just a good finisher who needs everything in place to get a pass, run and score.

He has no sport ethics, no defensive skill, no game creation, no off-load, no rucking, no counter rucking, no up and under, and, most despicable, a lack of manners at scoring a try because he behaviours like a low class prima donna.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Your argument that England have started to play more expansively ignores the fact that the new wingers have themselves aided that expansiveness - they have not simply benefited from the work of those inside them.

I think they have benefited from having 36 and Burrell/ not Barritt and Tuilagi. But I guess we will just agree to disagree which is fair enough.

And just so that you are aware - if you weren't already: 11 of his 18 international tries have been scored against Italy, Georgia, Romania and Scotland.

Yep im looking at May's try scoring record and it shows 0. He played against Italy and Scotland in games we completely controlled and didn't score 1. Ashton played against Italy in a match we completely controlled and scored 5, he is a better finisher than May. Nowell's try was a set piece move that Ashton could have scored, he also didn't score against Scotland, a team that had something stupid like 5% possession in our 22, Ashton is a natural try scorer.

In the 6n Nowell kicked the ball 9 times in 5 games - he ran the ball 46 times and passed 13 times.
In those games he beat 14 defenders and made 292m with 4 clean breaks.

In his last 5 games Ashton kicked the ball 7 times - he ran the ball 34 times and passed 21 times.
In those games he beat 2 defenders and made 170m with 1 clean break.

The last 5 games Ashton played where New Zealand, Argentina (try), Australia, Wales, Italy And we where the better team in 3 of them 5 games.
Nowell France, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, Italy(try) and we where better in 4 of the 5 games
In a more dominant team he has scored the same amount of tries as Ashton who played in a less dominant team, put him in that England team and I bet he has more than 1 try.

On the subject of wingers - http://www.espn.co.uk/england/rugby/story/223119.html
103kg

I reallly like Rokoduguni and he has got everything, can also cover 13 which is useful. I do concede that I would probably play him ahead of Ashton.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I'm not a big fan of May either, for the record.

Nowell had one try assist vs Scotland and was instrumental in another - that game was also played on possibly the worst professional pitch I have seen in my life.

The game in which Ashton scored 4 tries (not 5) vs Italy was in 2011 not 2014 - it was also a game in which Tindall and Cueto also each scored a try.
You wouldn't use that game to justify their inclusion in the England team now, would you?

In a more dominant team he has scored the same amount of tries as Ashton who played in a less dominant team, put him in that England team and I bet he has more than 1 try.

Put him in the team and I'd argue we would be anywhere near as dominant.
Part of our improvement this 6N is down to the fact that we have had two wingers who can be relied upon to make metres, beat defenders and make tackles.

Yarde played in one game in the Autumn and the disparity between his contribution and Ashtons was just as evident whilst playing in the same team, as Nowell's are playing in the 6N's team.
So again - the idea that he was playing in a team which did not allow for a winger to be effective is ********, frankly.

 

[j'nuh]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Uc29hRARgE#t=16

May's run draws about 5 defenders away from the wing, giving Twelvetrees and Burrell the space to score a try. Although he isn't credited with try or assist here, he played the most influential part in setting up that try.

 

[TheSaffycen]

The game in which Ashton scored 4 tries (not 5) vs Italy was in 2011 not 2014 - it was also a game in which Tindall and Cueto also each scored a try.
You wouldn't use that game to justify their inclusion in the England team now, would you?

oh I thought it was 5 which is a bit embarrassing, Tindall and Cueto are 34+ if they where 27 then they would be in the squad. I do remember the Australia game when Yarde and Ashton played together, Yarde made a big break down the line and destroyed Ashley-Cooper, he also gave away 2 penalties for tackling a player off the ball and tackling one in the air. Great contribution. I think an effective use of wingers is scoring tries and covering kicks from the other team, the basics, we don't score a lot of tries with our wingers, before Nowell scored against Italy the last time a winger scored for England was Ashton against Argentina. It is nice to have wingers that can tackle but if they aren't scoring tries than I think we aren't making proper use of them. Also Nowell got turned over 8 times and is a poor counter rucker, he isn't a bad player but I wouldn't be really gunning for him to be in the squad. I would have Yarde/Wade/Rokoduguni/Ashton then I look at Nowell, Varndell and the others. I think Nowell will become a great full-back and May will be a good club operator but I don't think he will be anything special intl'

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Don't know how you can say Nowell is a bad counter rucker, what I've seen of him internationally, he can keep forwards at bay with his counter rucking at times. Ashton scores tries but when you look at the key skill set for wingers such as clean breaks and defenders beaten, he just doesn't have them. He is essentially a glorified sprinter.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Ashton is the worst winger in England at the ruck as well, I can't remember how many penalties he's given away for England and Saracens.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Don't know how you can say Nowell is a bad counter rucker, what I've seen of him internationally, he can keep forwards at bay with his counter rucking at times. Ashton scores tries but when you look at the key skill set for wingers such as clean breaks and defenders beaten, he just doesn't have them. He is essentially a glorified sprinter.

From what I remember he got pushed off quite a few times, maybe I just remember incorrectly. And by saying Nowell is a bad counter rucker i'm not saying that Ashton is a good one, he isn't, I like the guy i'm not ****ing delirious. When it comes too skill set for wingers - running lines, kick and chase, fielding kicks, beating guys, I don't think that there are many people that can argue with his - Running lines, Chase, fielding kicks are very good. He can't step well at all but if someone makes a break I want Ashton on his shoulder, Nowell and May too me are not great finishers or support runners. When Foden was at his best Ashton was great with him, every break Ashton was on it, with Brown he might be as effective.

 

[Aristodemus]

I was the first to say how well Ashton played at the weekend, that said however, he has a very long way to go before even being considered for the England shirt. I am a big fan of Nowell, he might not be Wade-like with his x-factor but he does everything very well and his defensive work in the 6N was outstanding. Yarde and Nowell for me if we are picking from a full strength England.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I don't think I'd say his kick chase is particularly good - if he gets his timing right he smashes guys - if he doesn't then he isn't very effective.
His fielding of kicks is ok - certainly not notable or "very good" IMO.
Clearly when on form he runs phenomenal support lines.

Not sure how well his support lines would work with Brown - Brown's running game from deep works so well because all of his focus is on getting as far up the field as possible - he isn't really looking to offload or distribute from it.
And because he runs into traffic there isn't really the space to safely offload anyway - which is why he doesn't really look for it.

 

[Toby Sweeney]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Uc29hRARgE#t=16

May's run draws about 5 defenders away from the wing, giving Twelvetrees and Burrell the space to score a try. Although he isn't credited with try or assist here, he played the most influential part in setting up that try.

he certainly draws defenders when he runs 30m sideways without going 1m forward...

 

[TRF_Olyy]

he certainly draws defenders when he runs 30m sideways without going 1m forward...

I know you're trying to say that's a bad thing, but if he's drawn in defenders then that leaves space for others to exploit (hence: try).
It's like saying "Yeah, that prop drew in two defenders but he didn't make any ground - drop him."

 

[ratsapprentice]

May's lateral running was really ineffective the majority of the time - the run in that video was actually one of the few times it was effective.

 

[Peat]

If it wasn't particularly effective, neither was it particularly ineffective - got isolated once, but that's it - and if you look at that video, you can understand why he did it. The situation which unfolded - May receiving the ball with no space and a winger trying to shepherd him to the touch line - was a pretty common one.

May made more ground forwards off less runs that Nowell, beating more defenders in the process. Both players were far from perfect, but were basically useful in that they could be relied upon to pose a threat ball in hand and make things happen.

And Ashton doesn't really have that, at least not at international level. Even at his pomp, Ashton was a poacher supreme and an average all round wing with dubious defence. I am willing to believe the latter two assets can be restored (yes, dubious is an improvement on Ashton's last seen defence at this level) but I just don't see Lancaster getting the most out of the poaching. He doesn't seem interested in using that. Its the main reason I'm down on Ashton returning to England.

But yeah. I like May and feel people are unfairly typecasting him while ignoring his positive attributes.