[2014 Mid-Year Tests] England

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I had a defence training session with Andy Farrell last night. He came down to my rugby club and went through the defence as a form of attack which actually really made sense!

He was a lovely bloke

 

[Patchey]

I had a defence training session with Andy Farrell last night. He came down to my rugby club and went through the defence as a form of attack which actually really made sense!

He was a lovely bloke

Nice. I've got a few mates with links to Sarries and they've told me that most of the club's Wolfpack/attack as defense thing they have coming on came from his time there. If only he was justs England's defense coach!


What do people think of the story about Lancaster visiting Toulon this week?

 

[ratsapprentice]

Sensible - I do not believe for a second he was there to tell them he was going to select them.

Most likely he explained what the "exceptional circumstances" are - and to make sure that they fully understand why the rules are as they are i.e. not due to traveling time or access (not primarily anyway).
Potentially he did a bit of legal work with Toulon to grease the tracks should said circumstances occur.

I feel that the people who think this is a signal of their imminent recall are naive and have still failed to grasp the reasons behind the foreign player rules.

He almost certainly would have been speaking with Jonny too - given his open desire to move into coaching in the very near future.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

What do people think of the story about Lancaster visiting Toulon this week?

I think it's something of nothing.
A lot of people/press think it's a precursor to having one or both Armitages back in the EPS, but I don't think either will. It could just be that Lancaster went across to watch Toulon/them, and said "you're good, and are on our radar, but you need to be in England".

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

If either of them actually had a desire to play for England they would move back.

The fact they know the rules when they resigned in France shows they don't actually want to play for England, in which case I don't want them however good they appear to be!

 

[Patchey]

Tbf, Steffon seems very keen to play for England but doesn't want to mess up his families life / leave a very lucrative contract at one of Europe's best clubs. I can sort of understand that, and at least he's never said he should be picked despite playing in France. I'm not even sure if he would get picked were the rule not in existence.

Jonny as England's kicking coach? Yes please.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Jonny as England's kicking coach? Yes please.

More than just kicking hopefully. Imagine if we could rely on Farrell to have this awareness: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_mLbOP2oTA

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Try E and Try G are why Cipriani should be going to NZ:

 

[Peat]

Scott Wilson omitted from the JWC squad. Looks like a live candidate for the tour.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Just what we need: Another 8yr old prop who couldn't scrummage his way out of a paper bag =/

Cooper-Wooley and Sinckler better be touring.

 

[ratsapprentice]

I noticed the same thing.

You've got to assume Sinckler will be involved if our assumptions are correct.

I do not recall ever seeing a TH as young as he is play as well as he has.
It's not even like Thomas' supposed prowess in the loose has come to the fore - I can't think of a single thing he could do that Sinckler can't do better - possibly barring jackaling.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Thomas is far more mobile than Sinckler, in a Gethin Jenkins kind of way.
Not exactly top of the list of priorities for a tighthead though.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Yeah, I guess - but that's just a symptom of him being underweight for a tighthead.
I know he's listed as being 96kg on the ERC site which as you're probably bored of me saying seems to have by far the most accurate listings.
Although I am skeptical of him being that light - there is no telling how much of his mobility he's going to retain when he's actually in proper elite scrummaging condition.

If he's as heavy as he's listed (110kg which isn't unreasonable - judging by eye) then he's still 12kg lighter than Sinckler and Wilson and 10kg less than Cole.

 

[TheSaffycen]

If he's as heavy as he's listed (110kg which isn't unreasonable - judging by eye) then he's still 12kg lighter than Sinckler and Wilson and 10kg less than Cole.

Yeah I think we talked about this on another thread or earlier on this one, he is just not heavy enough and it shows at intl' level. Cole is quite light weight in terms of tightheads and Thomas is miles behind him, Sinckler and Cooper-Wooley are miles better than Thomas and scott. I think that Sinckler and Wooley would benefit propping with Davey Wilson.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

It is true: Whenever we take Cobilas off and Thomas runs onto the pitch it looks like he should be going to hooker or backrow, he looks miniscule compared to the other props.

 

[Peat]

The logical thing would be to leave Henry Thomas at home with a gym plan. He clearly has big potential and is clearly not strong enough to fulfill it yet.

I'm mildly surprised they'd go for Wilson - and its possible he's being rested for a proper pre-season as well - but he did hold his ground well enough in the Saxons games.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I know people will probably lynch me...........
If anyone watched the Sarries game yesterday might have noticed ummm.......
Chris Ashton...
But being serious Ashton has scored 11 tries so far this HCup campaign and yesterday even smashed Nalaga out of play and made a few cover tackles. Should he be in the touring squad for New Zealand ? I thought I would just make a few points, he struggled when Lancaster first came in because it was a very structured and wingers stayed wide and really didn't get the ball much. Now he wants us attacking and playing what we see and when he played with Flood and Foden he was truly amazing as he was running support lines that no one else was doing, I look at Care tapping and going and Farrell bringing the ball to the line, Brown running the ball back, he can actually thrive under the new set up we are playing. Doesn't really matter how I try to justify this because the first response will probably be no. Just no.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Saying he "smashed" Nalaga is a bit much! :lol:
He shepherded him into touch.

He was always going to be in the touring squad - certainly deserves to be there more than he did before based on yesterday's efforts.
One good game does not make up for 2 years of bad ones. Let's see how he goes if he gets selected - my guess is he'll probably be better than some of his recent England games but he's still a limited player.
The break and long pass yesterday was just about the most creative thing I've ever seen him do - let's see if he can continue to create things for others.
Again though - context is everything - he plays for one of the most brutally effective defensive side's I've ever seen and collectively that was just about their best game ever.

 

[Patchey]

Thomas and Wilson should both be given a full pre-season a la George Ford in 2012. I'm not convinced either is ready (although obviously Thomas has already been capped), Sinckler on the other hand is defiantly ready, like Rats says, when was the last time we saw a young tight head playing with sound power and maturity?

I know people will probably lynch me...........
If anyone watched the Sarries game yesterday might have noticed ummm.......
Chris Ashton...
But being serious Ashton has scored 11 tries so far this HCup campaign and yesterday even smashed Nalaga out of play and made a few cover tackles. Should he be in the touring squad for New Zealand ? I thought I would just make a few points, he struggled when Lancaster first came in because it was a very structured and wingers stayed wide and really didn't get the ball much. Now he wants us attacking and playing what we see and when he played with Flood and Foden he was truly amazing as he was running support lines that no one else was doing, I look at Care tapping and going and Farrell bringing the ball to the line, Brown running the ball back, he can actually thrive under the new set up we are playing. Doesn't really matter how I try to justify this because the first response will probably be no. Just no.

I've been waiting for this moment...

I've got to grudgingly admit that he did play well yesterday. But, and this is the issue for me, scoring 11 tries in the HCup for a team that consistently dominate the opposition to the point where his role is often simply to run the ball in off overlaps or forward breaks is a very different thing from producing the same hit rate in an international setting. He's got pace to burn and looks to have improved his game awareness but he doesn't seem to have a step, kicking game or be able to finish that well in tight situations. In fact that last point may be his real downfall in terms of attack.

Defensively, yes he did look slightly better as well. But when compared to Jack Nowell, who put down Parisse and Picamoles when they were sent down his channel during the Six Nations he's not exactly our best option is he?

Basically I'm not saying 'No. Just no' as I would have done a few weeks ago. He is looking better. But we have players who are younger, better in attack, better defense and are exciting to watch in a way that Ashton isn't. My question to you would be what does he have over Yarde, May, Nowell or Watson?

 

[TheSaffycen]

Saying he "smashed" Nalaga is a bit much! :lol:
He shepherded him into touch.

Well....well....screw you !!!!

He was always going to be in the touring squad - certainly deserves to be there more than he did before based on yesterday's efforts.
One good game does not make up for 2 years of bad ones. Let's see how he goes if he gets selected - my guess is he'll probably be better than some of his recent England games but he's still a limited player.
The break and long pass yesterday was just about the most creative thing I've ever seen him do - let's see if he can continue to create things for others.

Yes he did very poorly under Lancaster and did get more than his fair share of chances compared to most, but since he has been dropped he has played so much better, personally I believe that he is a brilliant winger and better than May and Nowell, At the moment but both are young, I think that a Yarde and Ashton combo will work well if both are aloud to stay off their wing and float in and around the breakdown and in the 10 channel. I fear that he will get selected and will be told to stay on the wing and all his assets will be void and all we will see is a guy get the ball twice and kick both times under pressure.

Edit on peats question My question to you would be what does he have over Yarde, May, Nowell or Watson?
May I am not sold on yet, his running is lateral (which isn't bad in itself) but leaves him isolated quite often and you see our players don't know what he is going to do next. Yarde is actually a better winger from what I've seen and would play 11. Nowell is okay but he is an full back playing wing, he did score a try but in that Italy game I would have preferred Ashton to play as against weak defences in an attacking game he does score a lot of tries, he isn't as good defensively but Wade isn't as good defensively but his attacking game is what we want, you don't pick wingers on defence. I have seen enough of Watson so I don't really know much abut him, I see he has some serious wheels but I don't know anything about his step, Kicking or handling