England v South Africa - 16/11/2024 (17.40)

[Lé Ddanno]

Is Steph Du Toit the best 6 to have played the gam

Glol

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I think they can't afford not to get someone new in for the summer.
Way cheaper than trying to get someone mid-season.

Cheika and O'Gara would be viable options then (especially if agreed relatively early, to give the clubs time to replace), both a step up on Borthwick.

Cheika coaching England would be hilarious.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Cheika coaching England would be hilarious.

Yeah has a lot of EJ version 2.0 about it

 

[jordiev]

Look, winning teams take time.

People talk about beating the world champions like it's something that comes off a conveyor belt. It isn't.

The SA pack is unquestionably the best in the world and we fell short- unsurprisingly.

Crisis is when you're getting your arse handed to you by these guys. We've come pretty close for 3 weeks. We don't have a right to beat them - it has to be earned. We're in the ballpark- it's small percentages we need and those take time and also take lessons being learned.

Borthwick has been "sackable" since game one because he's unfashionable. Not a big name. Bit of a nice guy. People still associate him with that poor period in the mid 2000s. Yet he was also forwards coach that took us to a WC final in 2019 was he not?

We've lost two key coaches along the way this autumn (granted I'd like to understand the reasons why and whether that lays at SBs door), and we lack on field leadership at key times. These lads will grow from this.

I don't accept the defeats, I certainly wouldn't accept mediocrity or poor mentality. But this is, whether you like it or not, a cycle built towards WC 2027. And we're not in an awful position.

Can we suddenly become a champagne rugby team that dominates with a different coach? I'm not convinced.

Ireland are also looking pretty sticky this autumn- should they sack Farrell?

There's being short against the best and there's crises- this is the former not the latter for me.

Lose against Wales or Italy in the 6N and then we would be in a crisis.

Borthwick is sackable because he has a sub 500 winning percentage and has won twice this year. We lost two coaches that he picked in less than a year most likely because of him, why else would they leave and why would the RFU smear joke on the way out? Why would he not hire a attack coach and hire his university mate as the replacement rather than best man for the job?

Farrell doesnt have a sub 500 win percentage and has proven something.

Australia have been cheeks for years and then beat us under Schmidt in short order.

The lads will grow? This isnt a new team, that team has an insane amount of caps in it, there is no growing.

If you like losing, and think Borthwick is good enough thats up to you, but the evidence isnt with you, comparing him to coaches who have proven records.

Weather you like it or not, this is two years into a Cycle and is now actively getting worse with no real progress. No identity. This isnt the start of anything, you normally build, not get worse.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Cheika already hates the RFU, already said he doesnt feel the RFU want him in the league let alone with England and doesn't need the money why would he coach England?

It's pretty clear he wants to get into the NRL long term also

 

[Saintjay]

Cheika already hates the RFU, already said he doesnt feel the RFU want him in the league let alone with England and doesn't need the money why would he coach England?

It's pretty clear he wants to get into the NRL long term also

Part of that reads like how Shaun Edwards thought about the RFU as well.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Cheika already hates the RFU, already said he doesnt feel the RFU want him in the league let alone with England and doesn't need the money why would he coach England?

It's pretty clear he wants to get into the NRL long term also

Still holding out hope he comes home one day.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Still holding out hope he comes home one day.

Randwick?
Honestly him with this Leinster squad would be scary

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Who is the alternative though? The problem was less appointing Borthwick, it was extending Jones. Right now, I don't think there's an obvious and available candidate, but flip me, we can definitely upgrade on the coaches around him.

No idea. But you'd like to think the RFU would have their finger on the pulse. I mean they won't but you'd like to think so.

As an interim measure could probably do worse than moving John Mitchell from the women's team.

But your point about the coaching team is bang on. And a sign of weakness to not surround yourself with people of real status. Although when he did it didn't work. One day the story will come out about that.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

England v South Africa player ratings: Marcus Smith the shining light amid a lot of gloom

Absence of guile, cunning and invention in every department, other than from Smith, costs England again

www.telegraph.co.uk

Steward - 5
Freeman - 7
Lawrence - 5
Slade - 6
Sleightholme - 6
Smith - 7
van Poortvliet - 5
Genge - 6
George - 6
Stuart- 4
Itoje - 5
Martin - 7
Cunningham-South - 5
Underhill - 8
Earl - 6

Fassi - 4
Kolbe - 8
Kriel - 6
de Allende - 7
Arendse - 7
Libbok - 5
Williams - 7
Nche - 7
Mbonambi - 5
Louw - 7
Etzebeth - 7
Snyman - 8
Kolisi - 8
du Toit - 6
Wiese - 7
Marx - 5
Steenekamp - 4
Pollard - 6

 

[Which Tyler]

I don't consider Mitchell to be viable until after the WRWC next year.

Great option for then though.

 

[BPM]

'Great option'? Good maybe, great, no IMO.

Honestly, if we were to get rid of Borthwick I'd prefer to move on from any coach associated with the Eddie Jones era.

 

[Rugbyfan564]

Convinced if England had control over club teams Smith would play a lot of 15 and Steward 12. If they were natural there and Fin Smith gets thrown in it would be so so clean.

If they want to control Steward even a bit he would need a central contract.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Cheika coaching England would be hilarious.

He would last about 38mins before he called an RFU exec a see you next Tuesday

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Borthwick is done and ******. He wasn't good enough when he started and the RFU screwed him with over promotion. No idea who should have been there, but he is out of the window. Poor player, average coach, **** off already

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Now I'll tell you how I really feel

 

[Rugbyfan564]

England player ratings: Underhill a machine but Steward struggles

England made a fast start at Allianz Stadium but Springboks proved too strong

www.standard.co.uk

 

[Rugbyfan564]

I think they can't afford not to get someone new in for the summer.
Way cheaper than trying to get someone mid-season.

Cheika and O'Gara would be viable options then (especially if agreed relatively early, to give the clubs time to replace), both a step up on Borthwick.

I don't think they will look for someone non English - a big part of Borthwick being hired was they wanted an English coach again the personal deciding hasn't really changed.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

O'Gara really emphasised that he won't leave his La Rochelle contract early - said contracts are a certain length and you should see them out

Would be absolutely amazed if he wasn't eyeing up the Ireland job after Farrell leaves (his contract expires at the same time as Farrell)

 

[Geordie]

Borwthick isn't going anywhere.

Much will depend on El Abd...and if we can find a proper 12 from somewhere...and which Props come through.

2 of those are not SBs fault.