England v South Africa - 16/11/2024 (17.40)

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Ford best years where imo robbed of him when it comes to england
I think Finn Smith is the most natural successor to it, I also think Marcus will provide a much bigger spark off the the bench


Granted I don't think it matters much with the coaching team
Just Reinach and Pollard both come on and SA look settled we don't have anyone who can control the game like that starting or bench

 

[jordiev]

I think Finn Smith could become that player. Really should be playing for EngA tomorrow.

Ford is, but needs time on the pitch (and being match sharp) to work things around. Ford needs to start, or stay at home.

I keep being told that Marcus is improving that aspect of his game, and I keep failing to see it. He's a bloody good player, a complate freak. But he's not an organiser, phase-play controller. There's no-one better (in England) at seeing a mismatch or half gap within 15m of himself. But he's not someone to play chess with the defence, to manipulate that mismatch in 3 phases time.

My issue with this is, without smith this attack looks truly pants, like unable to move the ball or be threatening. If we had a pollard there sure, but Ford since the WC hasn't been that guy and needs a run at club level, Finn smith for whatever reason isnt trusted by the coaching team…

Long term Finn and an attack coach would go a long way but until that hits I think Marcus is all we have, slade and co should be there to calm it down, they arent doing it.

 

[Wasps92]

George just repeating himself from last week and the week before.

 

[jordiev]

At least we should beat japan, they look in a terrible hole.

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Siya is such a dude

 

[AlRums]

Sack him sack him sack him sack him sack him sack him sack him sack him sack him sack him sack him sack him sack him sack him sack him sack him sack him sack him sack him sack him sack him the egg ****

Again, don't hold back.

 

[jordiev]

George just repeating himself from last week and the week before.

I bet you cant wait for Borthwick to come out saying we are developing, working hard, small errors…

 

[Lé Ddanno]

Here we go ...

Well obviously. We're losing every match and performing poorly, you prick.

 

[AlRums]

In all fairness my cat could have predicted an SA win, and i don't have a cat.

Mine's an all black, literally.

 

[AlRums]

Now I hope, the game of the day

 

[Saintjay]

Look we've only shipped 95 points in the last three games at home. I really don't see what the issue is.

 

[TopTen2003]

Glad to see there are those that will accept and applaud underperformance and mediocrity brave, elite mentality

Look, winning teams take time.

People talk about beating the world champions like it's something that comes off a conveyor belt. It isn't.

The SA pack is unquestionably the best in the world and we fell short- unsurprisingly.

Crisis is when you're getting your arse handed to you by these guys. We've come pretty close for 3 weeks. We don't have a right to beat them - it has to be earned. We're in the ballpark- it's small percentages we need and those take time and also take lessons being learned.

Borthwick has been "sackable" since game one because he's unfashionable. Not a big name. Bit of a nice guy. People still associate him with that poor period in the mid 2000s. Yet he was also forwards coach that took us to a WC final in 2019 was he not?

We've lost two key coaches along the way this autumn (granted I'd like to understand the reasons why and whether that lays at SBs door), and we lack on field leadership at key times. These lads will grow from this.

I don't accept the defeats, I certainly wouldn't accept mediocrity or poor mentality. But this is, whether you like it or not, a cycle built towards WC 2027. And we're not in an awful position.

Can we suddenly become a champagne rugby team that dominates with a different coach? I'm not convinced.

Ireland are also looking pretty sticky this autumn- should they sack Farrell?

There's being short against the best and there's crises- this is the former not the latter for me.

Lose against Wales or Italy in the 6N and then we would be in a crisis.

 

[Which Tyler]

Look we've only shipped 95 points in the last three games at home. I really don't see what the issue is.

Have we ever had 100+ in the Against column for an Autumn?

 

[Grizwald]

Had a house full for the first half so couldn't follow it as I'd have liked. Some soft tries conceded again, some good and some bad but some really poor basic errors. SA still gave every chance to England to take the game. England are just serial loosers.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

smith does drive the England team well and I don't agree that he can't manage a game. When the game fell apart seems to be when we arnt sate perfectly and Smith isn't in the right position. Then later on was all about one out runners which was shocking.

The strange thing was Mitchell injured, starting Spencer, then dropping Spencer. What does SB want as he doesn't seem to know.

 

[Grizwald]

Look, winning teams take time.

People talk about beating the world champions like it's something that comes off a conveyor belt. It isn't.

The SA pack is unquestionably the best in the world and we fell short- unsurprisingly.

Crisis is when you're getting your arse handed to you by these guys. We've come pretty close for 3 weeks. We don't have a right to beat them - it has to be earned. We're in the ballpark- it's small percentages we need and those take time and also take lessons being learned.

Borthwick has been "sackable" since game one because he's unfashionable. Not a big name. Bit of a nice guy. People still associate him with that poor period in the mid 2000s. Yet he was also forwards coach that took us to a WC final in 2019 was he not?

We've lost two key coaches along the way this autumn (granted I'd like to understand the reasons why and whether that lays at SBs door), and we lack on field leadership at key times. These lads will grow from this.

I don't accept the defeats, I certainly wouldn't accept mediocrity or poor mentality. But this is, whether you like it or not, a cycle built towards WC 2027. And we're not in an awful position.

Can we suddenly become a champagne rugby team that dominates with a different coach? I'm not convinced.

Ireland are also looking pretty sticky this autumn- should they sack Farrell?

There's being short against the best and there's crises- this is the former not the latter for me.

Lose against Wales or Italy in the 6N and then we would be in a crisis.

Problem as alot of people see it is Borthwick now has had time. He's gone for evolution rather than revolution keeping some old heads around when he'd probably get more grace if he got some kids in. How much control we'll have over Walter and Jones going we'll never know. The latter sat at home on gardening leave is a joke as he's clearing having no input.

 

[Saintjay]

Look, winning teams take time.

People talk about beating the world champions like it's something that comes off a conveyor belt. It isn't.

The SA pack is unquestionably the best in the world and we fell short- unsurprisingly.

Crisis is when you're getting your arse handed to you by these guys. We've come pretty close for 3 weeks. We don't have a right to beat them - it has to be earned. We're in the ballpark- it's small percentages we need and those take time and also take lessons being learned.

Borthwick has been "sackable" since game one because he's unfashionable. Not a big name. Bit of a nice guy. People still associate him with that poor period in the mid 2000s. Yet he was also forwards coach that took us to a WC final in 2019 was he not?

We've lost two key coaches along the way this autumn (granted I'd like to understand the reasons why and whether that lays at SBs door), and we lack on field leadership at key times. These lads will grow from this.

I don't accept the defeats, I certainly wouldn't accept mediocrity or poor mentality. But this is, whether you like it or not, a cycle built towards WC 2027. And we're not in an awful position.

Can we suddenly become a champagne rugby team that dominates with a different coach? I'm not convinced.

Ireland are also looking pretty sticky this autumn- should they sack Farrell?

There's being short against the best and there's crises- this is the former not the latter for me.

Lose against Wales or Italy in the 6N and then we would be in a crisis.

How many games in charge has he had? Where's the improvement and how much time do you give him?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

In all fairness my cat could have predicted an SA win, and i don't have a cat.

We've got 4 and they all called it. As did the dog. Even the fish had it sussed.

SA had the players to come up with the big plays, but honestly that's about as gilt edged a chance to beat them as you'll get.

In the last 20 we had SA under the pump and a man advantage, but were absolutely clueless. Regular forumites will know I'm not Itoje's biggest fan, but he's been our captain during these last quarter brain fades so has to take some flak. Today he also got absolutely marmalised in the carry a couple of times, lost one of our lineouts to Snyman and got a try chalked off. Not a good day at the office.

Mind you plenty of others didn't cover themselves in glory either. I think Stuart conceded at least 3 pens, Steward had some moments he'll want to forget and JvP will be having nightmares about tall South Africans for years. The double charge down try was pure comedy gold.

At least Underhill had some moments.

Not sure where we go from here.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Smith is the only spark in that team - problem is clearly **** coaching

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Winnings a habit, one team had it there today and the other don't know how to get over the line. I think that was the only difference today. SA were below their usual high percentage best but in a close game they know how to get it done and have the gamebreakers to do it. It takes a lot to be there in the game deciding minutes and a lot more to get it done. England weren't really there in the last 10-15 when they could have been and I think it was a little bit of a lack of belief after their recent run. A dummy throw, getting isolated, some bad kicking, I think they're symptoms of not trusting what they're doing.

The six nations is huge for them, they simply have to bridge the gap or they'll be left behind this cycle.

The tools are there and they continue to give themselves chances. Can only wait and see.