[2014 Mid-Year Tests] England

[TRF_Olyy]

In my head Daly is a dead cert to tour, but then I thought that last summer soooooo........

I'm hoping his versatility doesn't hinder him too much - getting a good run of games in the 13 shirt recently. I'd take him over Tait - he's the ideal #23 at the moment.

 

[Patchey]

Rats that is outrageous, I assumed they would have at least given him a contract considering he seems to be a regularish 1st XV player.

I'm amazed that Daly isn't being talked about here, can do everything even kick goals !!! I want to see him have a go at 12/13/15 and I guess that is the problem, cant nail down one spot.

In The Loose do sometimes make some mad brain fades. Daly not being listed is one. I think anyone watching him this season will agree that he'll be on the plane.

 

[ratsapprentice]

The main reason he's got so much game-time this season is because JJ has been injured.
He's almost certain to be given a senior contract for next year.

 

[Draggs]

The main reason he's got so much game-time this season is because JJ has been injured.
He's almost certain to be given a senior contract for next year.

Where do you see Olly playing long term? He has done well at outside centre, but I think JJ is the better once given time to settle in. I can't see him ousting Kyle from inside centre, while Ford is coming along at standoff. I think he will take over from Gavin first, covering a few from the bench once his contract runs out. I'd rather see Ollie at outside centre than Banahan though. I'd rather see the Queen Mary II at outside centre. Olyy has been tried at fullback but lacks the gas, which could be an issue as a long term outside centre. No doubt he is a talented player, I hope he is given a position and a chance to settle in. Olli is a tall lad IIRC, so he can definitely add some mass to that frame. I feel Heathcote will be on his way out eventually, so Olle could have a chance once it opens up.

Still not sure about fullback. Watson seems to be the heir apparent, but I still think he might be a wing. Shame to lose Abendanon. Wings could look a bit tight, Watson at FB leaves Banahan, Agulla, Rokoduguni, Lane, and Woodburn. Banahan is well... and I am not Agulla's biggest fan. Roko is a solid wing, and will improve. Haven't seen enough of Olie and Richard to comment.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Not sure about Ollie TBH - I think he may focus on being a FH - I know that is his favored position. And as you say Heathcote will probably be off at some point.
Because he's quite large I think it's a reasonable to assume he'll always be able to cover either 12 or 13.

Watson is no-doubt our first choice FB going into next season.
I think Lane is in the process of being converted into our FB cover.

That leaves us with 4 wingers - and 2 FB's who can genuinely play on the wing.
And I'd hope to see Woodburn start to get a bit more game-time - I'd probably pick him over the Banana Hammer at the moment.


Nowell is out of the tour.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

i hear people talking good about ashton and that made me think did he just learn how to tackle ?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Nowell is out of the tour.

Please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton, please not Ashton.

Someone wrap Yarde in cotton wool - Watson, Wade and Roko while you're at it.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Prior to the 6 nations both our wingers got injuries. Now leading up to NZ we have 1 injury. I suspect Ashton is on the prowl, removing competition until he regains his place.

 

[Peat]

Wade's probably not touring either judging from Young's comments.

I still have a long list of wingers I'd prefer to see before Ashton...

 

[TheSaffycen]

Also with In the Loose why are they putting Dickinson before Ewers?

With the wingers I wonder if they will end up using Tuilagi on the wing ? I hope not but he might be effective there. I guess what we will end up with is Yarde/Watson/May/Rokoduguni I personally would have Ashton over May but I think he was given to many opportunities so May deserves more I would say.

 

[Patchey]

Sh*t. Will we ever get all our wingers fit at the same time?

I reckon its Waldrom's fault. He's a Kiwi infiltrator who has signed with Exter purely so he could break Nowells leg when he visited Sandy Park for a medical.

Wade's probably not touring either judging from Young's comments.

I still have a long list of wingers I'd prefer to see before Ashton...

I think most of us do, but does Lancaster?

Ashton will almost certainly miss the first test so that at least gives us scope to try someone new. I'm assuming it'll be Yarde and May now. Saffycen has a good point about May deserving more chances, and this at least gives him another crack.


At this point does anyone think the Premiership Final will be anything other than Sarries v Saints? Going on that I think our back line for the first test will probably be:

9 Care
10 Ford
11 Yarde
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi
14 May
15 Brown

21 Youngs
22 Cipriani
23 Daly

Which as things go, isn't too shabby. Its still better than what our first choice back line has been prior to this season. Would like to see someone other than Youngs given a go but realistically I think whoever of Simpson or Robson goes, they will be limited to the midweek side. Cips HAS to tour as does Daly IMO. As for Manu on the wing. Perhaps when Burrell is back but for the first test our only other option at 13 would be JJ (who appears out of favour) or starting Daly. I don't know if any of you keep up with Super Rugby but Malaki Fekitoa, who is being talked of as playing in the first test at 13, or one of Conrad or Ben Smith are not the ideal candidates to make your debut against! Daly should be used as cover from the bench and Manu should be played in his prefered position while we still have good wing options to play instead of him and no one available who can be a viable replacement for the first test.

EDIT: A link to the Nowell story http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/apr/29/jack-nowell-operation-chris-ashton-england-tour. Looks like a sensible move for him to be honest. Also, a great example of how one dimensional the press can be regarding rugby. Ashton is one of England's most high profile players outside of serious rugby fans so naturally he's going to be mentioned in any story regarding England selection. But to basically ignore any talk of other options and make his form the story as much as Nowell's injury? Really?

 

[j'nuh]

Being dropped from England has worked wonders for a few players. Robshaw, Care, Youngs, Lawes are good examples. If Ashton is truly back to his try-scoring best, then I wouldn't mind seeing him back.

That said, the England set-up makes it hard for wingers to score tries. Since the first game of the 2013 Six Nations, England have scored 37 tries. 6 of these have been from wingers. I don't think that this is a general failing of our wingers, but that we approach the game in a particular way, and wingers aren't really there to finish off moves.

By contrast, over the same period, Wales scored 31 tries and 15 were from wingers.

 

[Patchey]

Being dropped from England has worked wonders for a few players. Robshaw, Care, Youngs, Lawes are good examples. If Ashton is truly back to his try-scoring best, then I wouldn't mind seeing him back.

That said, the England set-up makes it hard for wingers to score tries. Since the first game of the 2013 Six Nations, England have scored 37 tries. 6 of these have been from wingers. I don't think that this is a general failing of our wingers, but that we approach the game in a particular way, and wingers aren't really there to finish off moves.

By contrast, over the same period, Wales scored 31 tries and 15 were from wingers.

Agree about how being dropped can make a player. I'm just not sure that Ashton, even at his peak, was or is a good an option as some of the other guys we have. I'm not stubbon enough to mind admiting he is playing much better that we've seen for a few years now but still not convinced.

How many tries have the back three scored this season though? Having more creative centres should have increased that number.

 

[TheSaffycen]

9 Care
10 Ford
11 Yarde
12 Twelvetrees
13 Tuilagi
14 May
15 Brown

21 Youngs
22 Cipriani
23 Daly

Great looking backline but I would put Eastmond at 12 too help Ford as they have the club link. Then if Ford comes off we could have 10.Cipriani 12.Eastmond 13.Daly which is one of the most dangerous backlines in the world, so much pace and agility. Even put Roko at 14 instead of May ?

 

[Patchey]

Great looking backline but I would put Eastmond at 12 too help Ford as they have the club link. Then if Ford comes off we could have 10.Cipriani 12.Eastmond 13.Daly which is one of the most dangerous backlines in the world, so much pace and agility. Even put Roko at 14 instead of May ?

Doh!

I guess Eastmond will be in contention for the 12 or 23 **** then. He's fairly versatile as well so I can see Lancaster going with him. However unless they decide to full experimentation I can't imagine Twelvetree being dropped. Especially without Farrell at ten we're going to need someone with a bit more experience to provide some leaderhsip in the backs.

Roko instead of May works too. I mainly picked May because he is the incumbent and therefore probably slightly higher up the pecking order. Roko for the mid-week team and maybe a later test.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

At this point does anyone think the Premiership Final will be anything other than Sarries v Saints? Going on that I think our back line for the first test will probably be:

If Tigers avoid Sarries in the semi-finals then I think it'll be Sarries vs Tigers.

 

[ratsapprentice]

It could realistically be anyone vs Sarries.

 

[Patchey]

Yeah, I guess if its Saints v Tigers in the semi-final then things are a lot less certain.

Not sure which final possbility is best for England. Do we want a stronger team or a chance to try some things out?

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Great looking backline but I would put Eastmond at 12 too help Ford as they have the club link. Then if Ford comes off we could have 10.Cipriani 12.Eastmond 13.Daly which is one of the most dangerous backlines in the world, so much pace and agility. Even put Roko at 14 instead of May ?

Ford did play with Twelvetrees and Manu in the Tigers academy I believe and would have trained together in the senior set-up, so it wouldn't be completely foreign.

Trouble with that backline not much mass in it , think it may be too lightweight. Daly should def be on the bench imo but his versatility will mean he will be more likely a bench player over a starter could see him and Watson fighting for that bench spot.

Would have Roko over May.

I think Slater should get a chance on the bench this tour has played well enough to have earned it. (Esp if saints in the final). Although in Leicester Kitchener (if he can stay fit a whole season) is the most talented second rower we have and a future England starter imo.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Yeah, I guess if its Saints v Tigers in the semi-final then things are a lot less certain.

Not sure which final possbility is best for England. Do we want a stronger team or a chance to try some things out?

There are 2 or 3 players that need to be tried out now- Sinckler, Daly, Rokoduguni to see if they suit the set -up we have and if they are good enough for intl' level rugby. I want us to put out a very strong team and try and beat New Zealand. With the final and who we need you see what each team brings to us.
Saracens- M.Vunipola, B.Vunipola, Farrell, Barritt, Ashton
Tigers- Tuilagi, B.Youngs, T.Youngs, Slater, Parling, Cole, Croft ?
Northampton- Hartley, Corbisiero, Lawes, Wood, Dickson, Myler, Burrell, Foden
Bath- Webber, Wilson, Attwood, Fearns ?, Ford, Eastmond, Joseph, Rokoduguni, Watson
Best case would be Sarries v Tigers and Worse case Bath v Saints. Our team with a Bath vs Saints Final
1.Marler
2.Ward
3.Sinckler
4.Launchbury
5.Slater
6.Robshaw
7.Kvesic/Haskell
8.Morgan
9.Care
10.Farrell
11.Yarde
12.Twelvetrees
13.Tuilagi
14.May
15.Brown
16.George/Taylor 17.Mullan 18.Cooper-Woolley 19.Stooke/Kruis/Kitchener 20.Haskell/Kvesic 21.Youngs 22.Cipriani 23.Daly