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2014 6 Nations: France vs Ireland (Round 5)

SimonG said:
He's a massive loss. He's irreplaceable. His legs have gone and he's a good five years past his best, and yet last week vs Italy you saw a game that was very tight until he opened it up with two beautiful hand offs for the first half tries. Then his last action was another deft flick to set up a third.

What he does he makes look easy, but if it were that easy others would do it...they dont. I fear Ireland will become predictable again as we were pre O'Driscoll...matching teams with workrate, desire etc but lacking the creative cutting edge. With a smaller pool of players to choose from the liklihood of unearthing a gem is that bit more remote.
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You started so well... :p

He's still the best centre in the country, ultra consistent and has a brain unrivalled by any other 13 in the country. But, with players like Sexton, Bowe, Fitzgerald, Payne, Earls, Kearney etc... Along with Joe Schmidt as coach there is no way this team will regress in creativity especially considering we weren't very creative this year. It's a new era and if we can blood Olding at 12 and possibly make Marshall a 13? We could have a fantastic backline.


Next years ideal backline for me would look something like this:



9. Murray

10. Sexton

11. Earls

12. Olding

13. Fitzgerald

14. Bowe

15. Kearney


Those boys on form are better than any Irish backline pre 2005 and we still have the likes of Marmion, Reddan, Madigan, Jackson, Hanrahan, Marshall, D'Arcy, Henshaw, Trimble, Zebo, Gilroy, Kearney, Mcfadden and Payne in reserve. We could make about three backlines better than what we had in the 90's
 
Can't wait to see what Olding is like in a green shirt, but I don't think next season is the time - he'll just be back from a season length injury and I'm not sure he would be up to scratch by then. If we want to give the World Cup a good crack then Payne might be the best option. Although not as good at 13 than 15, I don't think anyone else has the ability he has to find gaps in defenses.

There's been a lot more talk about Earls this season, I've only seen a handful of Munster games this season and he wasn't even playing - how has he been? From previous season his defense in my opinion was such a liability and never really thought he was that good. Has his form just improved?
 
I really want to get Olding into a 13 shirt he just fits basically everything I want there.

Earls had been a lot better this year as he was actually kept as a winger. He's a quality player there as it's where his pace and step are best utilised. At winger his defense is up to scratch most of the time.
 
well BOD had a flat-out bad game. He missed 4 tackles, including one that could have been fatal, tried to outsmart Fickou with the little kick but got outsmarted himself and could have paid 7 for it, got *SERVED* by Huget on that sidestep sitting his old azz down, got penalized once... It's funny though because after the game, he was asked how he felt retiring after a win in Paris, and I felt like the question was too direct, like, we're not even sure he's done are we...
 
Earls has been outstanding. The thing is that he's perfectly good defensively on the wing as he can use the touch line to his advantage and knows his trade well there.
Only in the worst of situations as a last resort would I consider Earls a 13. He is built for the wing and the bad rap he gets for his time at centre is about as fair as judging Tom Court as a Tight head Prop.
Either way we have so much depth at wing but no real natural centre prospects except for Cave and Marshall. Everyone else would need to be adapted as both Payne and Henshaw are better at 15, but I think Bowe could do a job at 13. He has the skills, creativity feet and strength for the position as well as prior experience.
 
We got ridiculously lucky at the end*, but by f**k I'll take it!


*I suppose some would say it balances with the try that shouldn't have been...
 
big ginger 8 said:
I really want to get Olding into a 13 shirt he just fits basically everything I want there.

Earls had been a lot better this year as he was actually kept as a winger. He's a quality player there as it's where his pace and step are best utilised. At winger his defense is up to scratch most of the time.
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Earls has all skills for 13, issue is with less time those skills are hurt by decision making where he get hurt.
As for Olding I think he's good but can he keep prolonged fitness.
At moment our 2 realistic options are Cave who I rate highly and Henshaw who I think will need to leave Connacht to really enhance chances.
Payne is a player who is like Earls will be ok 13 but his best spot is 15 so let him fight for that shirt. Another option is possibly D'Arcy to 13
 
For me the answer is Payne we have see the disaster that is Earls at 13 defensively, but would also like to see cave or henshaw get a run
 
Amiga500 said:
We got ridiculously lucky at the end*, but by f**k I'll take it!


*I suppose some would say it balances with the try that shouldn't have been...
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your comment was very respectable in that first line, and then completely thrown away on the second with the asterisk. There wasn't a single bit of luck going France's way this match, not this time. In fact, a whole lot of misfortune if we're going to do this.
 
Amiga500 said:
+1

D'Arcy is a 13. He's just had to play 12 for a few year's to make room for some guy called Brian.


Payne is not a 13.
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I don't like encouraging the idea of playing Payne anywhere but 15, but I can't in all honesty agree with the idea that Payne isn't a 13 as well. Season before he came over to Ulster, he was mainly playing 13, and there was genuine worry that the All Blacks were going to cap him and ruin his project player status. Some of their papers were talking him up as a possible cap. We haven't played him there much, because he's by far out best 15, we have plenty of centres, and Payne is probably best at 15... but I'd be pretty confident he could do a job at outside centre.

Cold light of day, BOD's most valuable traits over the last year or so have been his experience, his desire and his leadership. In terms of play, I don't think any of the guys being proposed as replacements are going to drop below his recent average performances and think some could improve it. Ireland have sufficient attacking options in the back three to counter-balance his departure even if I am wrong. The possible return of O'Brien and Ferris, the continued improvement and maturing of Henderson, and the possibility of Copeland coming into the mix offers the Ireland pack some huge carrying weapons to ease the pressure on the backline as well.

They'll be fine. Unfortunately.

To me the most interesting question is 12. Do they keep D'Arcy to help bed in the new man, or do they turn to youth and start building a new partnership now? My money is on the former, but it seems a difficult call.
 
Peat said:
I don't like encouraging the idea of playing Payne anywhere but 15, but I can't in all honesty agree with the idea that Payne isn't a 13 as well.
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As you know, JP isn't the best 13 at Ulster. We've a better, younger, Irish one called Darren Cave. If Joe is looking Northward to replace BOD, Cave's his man, not JP.

He (Payne) is far and away our best 15 and IMO a better 15 than Kearney. Rob Kearney is solid under a high ball and can do a good job of cutting a line marked out for him on a training pitch... can also hit a mean drop goal on occasion too. Jared Payne is probably the best natural reader of space and manipulator of players in the Northern Hemisphere. Not as good under a high ball, probably not quite the same booming boot, but in pretty much every other facet, better by between a little and an awful lot.
 
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Peat said:
I don't like encouraging the idea of playing Payne anywhere but 15, but I can't in all honesty agree with the idea that Payne isn't a 13 as well. Season before he came over to Ulster, he was mainly playing 13, and there was genuine worry that the All Blacks were going to cap him and ruin his project player status. Some of their papers were talking him up as a possible cap. We haven't played him there much, because he's by far out best 15, we have plenty of centres, and Payne is probably best at 15... but I'd be pretty confident he could do a job at outside centre.

Cold light of day, BOD's most valuable traits over the last year or so have been his experience, his desire and his leadership. In terms of play, I don't think any of the guys being proposed as replacements are going to drop below his recent average performances and think some could improve it. Ireland have sufficient attacking options in the back three to counter-balance his departure even if I am wrong. The possible return of O'Brien and Ferris, the continued improvement and maturing of Henderson, and the possibility of Copeland coming into the mix offers the Ireland pack some huge carrying weapons to ease the pressure on the backline as well.

They'll be fine. Unfortunately.

To me the most interesting question is 12. Do they keep D'Arcy to help bed in the new man, or do they turn to youth and start building a new partnership now? My money is on the former, but it seems a difficult call.
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Can I ask though, Schmidt has said he needs his 13 to be playing there regularly for club. Would that mean so sacrificing Cave?
I agree regards Bod comments but Payne has never looked better than average at 13. Payne at 15 is a different animal completely. But if he is to be put at 13 he has to play there in big games for Ulster.
 
Payne has looked better than average at 13. He's done it for Ulster but in particular he did it in Super Rugby. I'm a big Cave fan, but Payne looked a superior attacking force in Super Rugby than Cave has in HEC. If Cave had shown what Payne has then the question of BOD's successor would be done and dusted, particularly as Cave is one hell of a defender, which is probably Payne's weakest point as a 13.

I don't want Payne playing 13 for Ulster. I would be furious if he ended up there by IRFU diktat, although I accept its in their power and right. Certainly for Ulster, Payne at 15 and Cave at 13 is the optimal use of resources. But I'm not sure that makes Cave a better 13 - and it certainly doesn't make Payne a bad 13. Rumours of his shortcomings in the position are greatly exaggerated. I agree with Amiga that Payne is a better 15 than Kearney but there's still the worrying possibility that Ireland's optimal use of resources is Kearney at 15 and Payne at 13.

I feel very sure Payne will play some games for Ireland at 13. If nothing else, he is going to the World Cup and versatility is a prized asset. He will probably be tested at 13 at some point, even if its against a minnow or for the Wolfhounds.
 
Now I haven't ever seen Payne at 13 but I have seen him at 15 and I feel that Kearney would possibly have to make way. Payne is like Brown in the way he isn't lightning fast but seems to beat men at will. He is creative and smart so why can't he play 15 but come into the line a la Goode, but so much better, and you can have a more brutal 13 like Cave ?
 
The thing is Payne at fullback has been revolutionary for ulster whereas with center hes been good but not as impactful as form the back, I reckon Payne should be kept at 15 and give some competition for Kearney because in reality there been no competitor for the 15 jersey since the days of Murphy and Dempsey.
 

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