[2020 Six Nations] France vs England (02/02/20)

[Vieux Talonneur]

Faz is an interesting one. I've always liked what he brings, but....

The captaincy clearly isn't helping. He's great at helping to set the tone but he's not the right man for the arm band. But who's better?? Saying it shouldn't be Faz, without any better ideas doesn't get us very far.

That's a couple of times now when he's played through evident injury. Brave, but to the detriment of the team. Can't blame the bloke for wanting to stay on but Jones has to make decisions. There can't be any sacred cows when it comes to hooking on injury or performance - also applies to Itoje.

He's a 10 and is playing out of position every bit as much as Curry or Lawes. It's easy to forget this.

All backs look cr*p if their forwards aren't delivering decent ball.

He has had some cr*p games. Combination of the above and that everyone has an occasional off day.

Ford / Faz may now have run it's final course. But Faz is the skipper and will get the shirt if it's one or the other.....

 

[Scotty]

Faz is an interesting one. I've always liked what he brings, but....

The captaincy clearly isn't helping. He's great at helping to set the tone but he's not the right man for the arm band. But who's better?? Saying it shouldn't be Faz, without any better ideas doesn't get us very far.

That's a couple of times now when he's played through evident injury. Brave, but to the detriment of the team. Can't blame the bloke for wanting to stay on but Jones has to make decisions. There can't be any sacred cows when it comes to hooking on injury or performance - also applies to Itoje.

He's a 10 and is playing out of position every bit as much as Curry or Lawes. It's easy to forget this.

All backs look cr*p if their forwards aren't delivering decent ball.

He has had some cr*p games. Combination of the above and that everyone has an occasional off day.

Ford / Faz may now have run it's final course. But Faz is the skipper and will get the shirt if it's one or the other.....

If ford faz has run its course then what?

Faz devoto JJ. Not against it tbh as devoto is a good carrier and JJ is rapid and can find some space but a new centre combo might take some bedding in. I still like Faz Manu Slade personally(i know not an option).

I do like ford from the bench leading the attack as i really think he brings something and speeds up play with 2 actual centres outside him.

As for captaincy we need a vice captain in the pack maybe itoje. He is a leader but there needs to be a leader within the pack rather than relying on a 10 to tell a back rower how to do his job.

 

[ncurd]

Alternative skipper,

Honestly my brain goes one of Sinckler (26, 25 caps), Itoje (25, 34 caps) or Curry (21, 19 caps)

Sure there's an age/experience thing but all three of those are likely to be playing regardless for years to come and I'd always rather a forward.

 

[ncurd]

I do like ford from the bench leading the attack as i really think he brings something and speeds up play with 2 actual centres outside him.

The issue is both with Lancaster and EJ if Ford is on the bench we either move to Ford/Faz or he gets barely a cameo. The sheer reluctence under any circumstance to hook Faz is part of them problem.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

Two.

Lose to the Jocks and it's full 2018 crisis mode.

There's that overreaction again.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

I'm all on board for trying new things, but repeatedly trying these things after they've been proven not to work is a completely different matter. The continued inclusion of Youngs despite awful form, the continued selection of Lawes at 6 despite it clearly not working, as well as stating an intent to continue to play Curry at 8 all show EJ's inability to learn from his own mistakes.

But surely the point is that Eddie thought that it would work for this game (bearing in mind the personnel available to him). Just because it didn't work in a previous game doesn't mean it can't work in a different game. Horses for courses and all that.

And does anybody remember the weird attempt to set up a midfield maul from open play early on that didn't quite come off? Proudfoot's influence probably, but it shows Eddie's trying out all sorts of ideas. Some will work, some won't. When it works, he's a genius, when it doesn't, he's a muppet.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

If it can be assured that he'll stay in England then I'd back Kruis as captain.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

But surely the point is that Eddie thought that it would work for this game (bearing in mind the personnel available to him). Just because it didn't work in a previous game doesn't mean it can't work in a different game. Horses for courses and all that.

But if it hasn't worked in any previous games, then expecting it to work in this one was madness. Everyone but EJ knew that Lawes at 6 and Youngs anywhere in the 23 was a bust.

 

[Which Tyler]

Jamie George for Captain - Curry a possibility if he's not being messed about positionally.

NB: I think the table at the top of the page might be a little out of date

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Itoje always seemed earmarked for the captaincy but I dunno - doesn't strike me as a great leader and he gives away way too many stupid penalties to really inspire confidence/have refs take him seriously.

Sinckler too hot headed - plus a prop is only gonna play 50-60 a game, who captain's in the rest?

I think curry will captain England eventually (said it ages ago) but he's too young atm and getting ****** around by the coaches too much. Leave him a while to properly cement his foothold in the international game on the flank and then have a proper look



There really aren't any obvious candidates imo.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

But if it hasn't worked in any previous games, then expecting it to work in this one was madness. Everyone but EJ knew that Lawes at 6 and Youngs anywhere in the 23 was a bust.

Tbf, I didn't think Lawes played worse than anyone else. And I thought Youngs played well in that semi against NZ, but I do agree he was rubbish yesterday. However, I think we always forget to consider how players, regardless of their actual play, fit into the team's dynamic, e.g. as leaders, motivators, personalities etc. With so many changes to the team, including a few newbies, and a tricky away fixture in Paris in tricky conditions, Eddie probably wanted to keep his veteran halfbacks as a stabilising force for the team. I'm not saying that's why Youngs was selected, but it's a possibility (and slightly higher a possibility than Eddie being mad. Only slightly, mind... )

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I don't buy that excuse for not trying a new 9 at all
Our 10/12/13 were pushing 200 caps combined - who exactly was Youngs inspiring confidence in? The fullback half a pitch away?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

If I was Genge or Sinckler and after absolutely monstering the French scrum, Youngs went and nonchalantly chucked the ball into touch like he did then that's not a guy I'm ever letting 'lead' me again.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

I don't buy that excuse for not trying a new 9 at all
Our 10/12/13 were pushing 200 caps combined - who exactly was Youngs inspiring confidence in? The fullback half a pitch away?

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see Youngs replaced.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Itoje always seemed earmarked for the captaincy but I dunno - doesn't strike me as a great leader and he gives away way too many stupid penalties to really inspire confidence/have refs take him seriously.

Sinckler too hot headed - plus a prop is only gonna play 50-60 a game, who captain's in the rest?

I think curry will captain England eventually (said it ages ago) but he's too young atm and getting ****** around by the coaches too much. Leave him a while to properly cement his foothold in the international game on the flank and then have a proper look

There really aren't any obvious candidates imo.

Captaincy is like any other skill. You need a flair for it and then have to work hard to practice and refine that skill over time. Hartley was our best recent captain and he captained Saints for years. Similarly Jonno at Tigers. No point in talking about Carling being appointed as a babe in arms - that was the amateur era and a gamble even then (but he may have learnt some leadership from his brief stint in the army).

As far as I can see the only current Premiership captains near the squad are:

Ewels. He started on Saturday, but isn't and never will be a regular first choice. A captain's authority partly derives from having an unquestioned place in the team.

Heinz. Not long term as a player so out of the equation.

Launchbury, His days as a regular starter seem to have gone and doesn't seem an authoritative enough figure anyway.

Barritt for England!

 

[Which Tyler]

Isn't Ford usually skipper at Leicester? Not that I'd make him captain (FH is the single worst position to captain from, IMO)

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Isn't Ford usually skipper at Leicester? Not that I'd make him captain (FH is the single worst position to captain from, IMO)

I think T Youngs is captain but maybe Ford co captains (which is a ridiculous concept).

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Didn't Ford Captain England in the world cup vs USA?

Though, as above, I wouldn't have him as one of my picks

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

I'd say far from inspiring confidence, someone like youngs does the exact opposite. You know you can't trust him to keep momentum going and that his passes will all be so slow that the defence will be in your face before you use a chance to react. The box kicks will all be too long and he will make no effort to prevent a turnover if he sees it coming. Even as the guards are slowly pushed back, he will still **** around rather than get the ball out.

I've noticed he also will actively avoid passing to players running a line, preferring to delay until they stop and then he will pass to them. I genuinely want to know what Jones thinks he actually does well. Yes other scrum halves may not be brilliant but they can't be much worse. My non-English friends also say Youngs consistently stands out as ****, even in the new Zealand game he was notable for being average at best.

 

[Tooting Carmen]

When you consider how inexperienced that French team was, that was a pretty good win. Given all their U20's winning players coming in, I finally expect good things from France over the next few years.