[2020 Six Nations] France vs England (02/02/20)

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I think T Youngs is captain but maybe Ford co captains (which is a ridiculous concept).

Just a Vice captain

 

[GoTheNaki]

Alternative skipper,

Honestly my brain goes one of Sinckler (26, 25 caps), Itoje (25, 34 caps) or Curry (21, 19 caps)

Sure there's an age/experience thing but all three of those are likely to be playing regardless for years to come and I'd always rather a forward.

I always think that you've gotta give the captaincy to a meathead, someone who lives and breathes rugby, someone who's always up for it. Pretty boy backs aren't really in amongst it for 80 minutes, you've gotta lead from the front which is why I like it when the captain is in the forward pack. I think Itoje would be a great captain, I think he's everything I'd want in a captain tbh. He puts his body on the line for the entire time he's out there, he goes for turnovers, he psyches his team up, he plays mind games with the opposing teams, he's already lost in a final and been on the biggest stage at his age... Yeah, I think he'd be good for English rugby.

 

[Amiga500]

I always think that you've gotta give the captaincy to a meathead, someone who lives and breathes rugby, someone who's always up for it. Pretty boy backs aren't really in amongst it for 80 minutes, you've gotta lead from the front which is why I like it when the captain is in the forward pack. I think Itoje would be a great captain, I think he's everything I'd want in a captain tbh. He puts his body on the line for the entire time he's out there, he goes for turnovers, he psyches his team up, he plays mind games with the opposing teams, he's already lost in a final and been on the biggest stage at his age... Yeah, I think he'd be good for English rugby.

But he is stupid.

Terrible discipline.

A captain cannot exactly lay down the law to his team-mates for giving away stupid penalties when he himself is Culprit #1.

 

[Which Tyler]

But he is stupid.

Terrible discipline.

A captain cannot exactly lay down the law to his team-mates for giving away stupid penalties when he himself is Culprit #1.

I wouldn't say "stupid" but I agree with the rest. A couple of years ago, I thought he was being groomed as Hartley's successor; but he's still too impetuous and sometimes petulant. I don't mind the captain giving away penalties here and there - especially in the forwards - but there's a difference between stupid ones, and calculated. Having said that, of course, several captains have managed to change that with the added responsibility.
He'd still be better than Farrell mind.

 

[Amiga500]

Maybe I should have made clear I mean "rugby stupid" instead of "general stupid". But given the context of the discussion, I thought it would be obvious so didn't bother.

 

[Which Tyler]

FTR, I was also meaning "rugby stupid" - I think he's got good tactical knowledge and instincts - he just gets over-enthusiastic, and sometimes can't help himself from infringing.
Johnson and Hartley weren't "rugby stupid" either - but were frequently guilty of doing something stupid.

 

[die_mole]

Reckless is the term you are looking for.

you don't constantly put yourself in position to commit those penalties by being "rugby stupid". He always knows where's to be and he knows why he commits those penalties, he just shouldn't be doing them.

 

[CAB]

I am truly stunned by the fact almost no one gave credit to this french side to not loose a match it has dominated during about 60 minutes... First of all, Last WC, we have seen that Galthié had done some work in the french side, without Vahamina stupid gesture, France would have eliminated Welsh. The quarter final was a good match between 2 teams for once together at the same level... Then after ten days of Shaun Edwards, here the first difference : Frenchmen are still super great in firts half but they manage to keep the lead the match and to win it in the second half. That's NEW...
I hope this french side won't perform too well nor too fast. They are young, they are in transition, they are improving. If they were to win the tournament this year or even to do the GS... it would be a thunder hit on rugby earth. Because this french team is perfectible, she has a big marge of improvement, they have 3 years to improve. Perosnally, I wanted to have the NZer former coach of Clermont and Scotland to train France (I like alot the way he trained Clermont, a mix of NZ and french culture) but it seems the ticket Galthié-Ibanez-Edwards will make "miracles"... I think England will recover cause they come and thought the mach was won before playing it, thanks to Old Eddie for his sarcastic/ironic/arrogant words on the french tiny kids which shoudl have been destroyed by the Super experienced vice-champions... Now that we have the players, the coach, the methode... Experience will come in the next three years... I am not sure that playing France is now the routine or the lovely promenade Eddie was saying ! I even think Welsh and Irish will play France with less certitudes... and that's not only NEW, that's GREAT. I think world Rugby need a good french side...

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

I am truly stunned by the fact almost no one gave credit to this french side to not loose a match it has dominated during about 60 minutes... First of all, Last WC, we have seen that Galthié had done some work in the french side, without Vahamina stupid gesture, France would have eliminated Welsh. The quarter final was a good match between 2 teams for once together at the same level... Then after ten days of Shaun Edwards, here the first difference : Frenchmen are still super great in firts half but they manage to keep the lead the match and to win it in the second half. That's NEW...
I hope this french side won't perform too well nor too fast. They are young, they are in transition, they are improving. If they were to win the tournament this year or even to do the GS... it would be a thunder hit on rugby earth. Because this french team is perfectible, she has a big marge of improvement, they have 3 years to improve. Perosnally, I wanted to have the NZer former coach of Clermont and Scotland to train France (I like alot the way he trained Clermont, a mix of NZ and french culture) but it seems the ticket Galthié-Ibanez-Edwards will make "miracles"... I think England will recover cause they come and thought the mach was won before playing it, thanks to Old Eddie for his sarcastic/ironic/arrogant words on the french tiny kids which shoudl have been destroyed by the Super experienced vice-champions... Now that we have the players, the coach, the methode... Experience will come in the next three years... I am not sure that playing France is now the routine or the lovely promenade Eddie was saying ! I even think Welsh and Irish will play France with less certitudes... and that's not only NEW, that's GREAT. I think world Rugby need a good french side...

I agree France deserve credit fir the win. In fact, the media has portrayed it more as an England loss than a France win, which is unfair. However, not blowing leads should be the standard, not the exception. France made it a standard the last decade, so is this latest game just an exception? It's up to France to prove themselves going forwards.

I don't agree that England thought that playing France was a lovely promenade. When you say that to win you have to be 'absolutely brutal', that's showing a ton of respect to the opposition for being very hard to beat, not claiming it's a going to be a walkover.

I agree that rugby needs a good French side. Where have you been the past 10 years?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Reckless is the term you are looking for.

you don't constantly put yourself in position to commit those penalties by being "rugby stupid". He always knows where's to be and he knows why he commits those penalties, he just shouldn't be doing them.

2 sides of the same coin. Coming at it from the other angle rugby smart is having the judgement to do the right thing at the right time - McCaw at the breakdown was a great example, he never wasted his energy on lost causes but picked his moments and usually made a positive impact when he did intervene. And stayed on the right side of the ref.

Itoje is far from a bad player, but he's not a great one either. I understand why people think he may be captaincy material but I don't see that at all, in fact he perfectly encapsulates the Eng team - totally red hot when he's on it, anonymous when he's not and little in between.

TBH about the only one in the squad who seems to be mature and calm enough for it is Heinz and he's not really an option.

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

2 sides of the same coin. Coming at it from the other angle rugby smart is having the judgement to do the right thing at the right time - McCaw at the breakdown was a great example, he never wasted his energy on lost causes but picked his moments and usually made a positive impact when he did intervene. And stayed on the right side of the ref.

Itoje is far from a bad player, but he's not a great one either. I understand why people think he may be captaincy material but I don't see that at all, in fact he perfectly encapsulates the Eng team - totally red hot when he's on it, anonymous when he's not and little in between.

TBH about the only one in the squad who seems to be mature and calm enough for it is Heinz and he's not really an option.

I thought Itoje was one of our few good players against France. He had one ripped turnover, another at the breakdown , stole 2 lineouts, disrupted several others that we turned over, made some tackles that drove the French backwards, carried hard and almost scored a try.

Why do England fans always run down their players? Itoje did more in one game on Sunday than Alun Wyn Jones has done in the past 6 years' worth of games put together, and he's a god in Wales (Jones, not Itoje).

 

[Amiga500]

I am truly stunned by the fact almost no one gave credit to this french side to not loose a match it has dominated during about 60 minutes...

They were brilliant the first 60...

But as soon as May scored the first, you could see they were mentally fragile - the knock ons started, which became 10 times worse when the scrum started creaking.

Seeing out the win will do them the world of good - and it'll be great to see France punching their weight again!

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Why do England fans always run down their players? Itoje did more in one game on Sunday than Alun Wyn Jones has done in the past 6 years' worth of games put together, and he's a god in Wales (Jones, not Itoje).

I don't think we particularly do. But it's incredibly frustrating when they veer from the sublime to the ridiculous, often in the course of the same match. It's a big fault line and has been for a while.....if the players turn in wildly fluctuating performances it's unsurprising that the fans' reactions will be similarly volatile. We dish out plenty of credit when they get it right.

AWJ's value to Wales isn't measured by turnovers or lung capacity.......

 

[Jimbo]

I don't think we particularly do. But it's incredibly frustrating when they veer from the sublime to the ridiculous, often in the course of the same match. It's a big fault line and has been for a while.....if the players turn in wildly fluctuating performances it's unsurprising that the fans' reactions will be similarly volatile. We dish out plenty of credit when they get it right.

AWJ's value to Wales isn't measured by turnovers or lung capacity.......

different players, half of Itojes game is just being an absolute nuisance all over the park sometimes legally sometimes not so much so I think you have to realise that if he stops conceding so many penalties the likelihood is he will be far less effective, I'm sure for many of the 'stupid' pens he gives away he gets away with a few, don't think you can have it all ways if I am honest, with that said he could probably curb the odd one or two which are needless.

 

[CAB]

I agree France deserve credit fir the win. In fact, the media has portrayed it more as an England loss than a France win, which is unfair. However, not blowing leads should be the standard, not the exception. France made it a standard the last decade, so is this latest game just an exception? It's up to France to prove themselves going forwards.

I don't agree that England thought that playing France was a lovely promenade. When you say that to win you have to be 'absolutely brutal', that's showing a ton of respect to the opposition for being very hard to beat, not claiming it's a going to be a walkover.
I was meaning that this french side, a year ago would have lost it, even with a 24-00 start... I have numerous exemples where in the last 2 eyars, they outrgeously dominated the first half to so called superior teams and disapeared in the second half... This time, I didn't see the French disapearing, they chose to defense a great advance, they were present in each maul or fighting area, they responding "present" even and I think it's there they have surprised English the most. I truly English thought "let the thunder pass, then they will inevitably loose the control and the fighting spirit and in the end, we'll win as did many other countries against French in the last years" ...

I agree that rugby needs a good French side. Where have you been the past 10 years?

9 Years ago this same erratic french side (sometimes Jean qui rit, other times Jean qui pleure) has been stolen in 2011 Rugby world cup final, but I would say it was worse and worse till then and the curvy fall had began in 2010...

To finish, I think England can win the tournament, (even if) due to a flaterring bonus point, because it will count in the end... They will face now teams they know well, which are full of certitudes and which doesn't switch from the highest to the lowest as did Les Bleus. they are still a true good team. They wouldn't have "erased" NZ in semi last year if they weren't. Vunipola is a great loss but England can put in the same time, on the pitch, 2 full starting XV with an equivalent strength and talents. In Europe, it's not the case of Wales, Ireland nor Scotland (I don't even speak of italy)... the alone with a good tank of players, it's France, but with many french players, it's all about motivation and willingness more than skill or talent. This 6N is surely the most opened of the last decade, since France seems to want to play it at full strength and that Scotish were better than expected by many (I was not of those, but force is to recognise that the majority of rugby world always minored Scotts... I am at the opposite cause I have a biased eye : Auld alliance, and I have some memories or even a certain nostalgy of the scotish team with Gavin Hastings in it)... I may be French, I can like many foreign players and recognise their skills and talents... I miss alot Rob Andrew, Rory Underwood, Mehrtens, johnny Wilkinson (not only the player but the Man, so fair and generous inside and outside the game, he has done alot to promote rugby here in France after his retirement), Colin Charvis, the 2 Jenkins, Bryan O'Driscoll, Carter etc... I forgot alot, my first feelings with rugby began with 80's, when France is finally recognised as a true force (they were a force before, but never been that great than after the end of the 70's) ...

 

[CAB]

They were brilliant the first 60...

But as soon as May scored the first, you could see they were mentally fragile - the knock ons started, which became 10 times worse when the scrum started creaking.

Seeing out the win will do them the world of good - and it'll be great to see France punching their weight again!

I disagree partly, French resisted well in fact. The english side wouldn't have put any try if it wasn't for May's Lightenings... last year, french would have given up and would have lost... and that is the most important point of the match (for the french side) ... they didn't give up here, they have even done crucial turnover, stealing ball to a dominating english side... about the forwards, it's absolutely normal that a young and transition team low its level at the end of a "crunch" and dear, it was truly a total engagement by both team.... just have a look at the stats, look the number and the quality of the tackles. for once, we have had a match, in the last ten years, it was not frequent to see the French palying it truly or at least, at this level... we can find a certain "suffisance" (don't know the english word) in the first 30 minutes, by the English side... But clearly, English played far better in the second half, and they were simply surprised the French didn't give up as usual in the last years.

 

[ALJ]

I keep seeing this said on loads of media. Was it the most successful period in their history? 4 Six Nations ***les in 12 years isn't even close to their golden period between 1964 and 1979 when they won 11 ***les (8 outright and 3 shared). Between 1975 and 1979 alone they won 4 ***les in 5 years (all outright). Am I the only one who remembers this? Has history been changed and nobody told me?

Fair enough, I stand corrected.

I wasn't wrong about the result though.

(a bit late - am out of the country).

 

[Nudger]

England had 60% persetion and had the ball in the French 25 (i am that old) 7 times in the first half , dont know how many penalties in the red zone and never scored ,fell of tackles every where . eddy was right we forgit how to play rugby. We gave that game away

 

[Not Eddie Jones]

I disagree partly, French resisted well in fact. The english side wouldn't have put any try if it wasn't for May's Lightenings... last year, french would have given up and would have lost... and that is the most important point of the match (for the french side) ... they didn't give up here, they have even done crucial turnover, stealing ball to a dominating english side... about the forwards, it's absolutely normal that a young and transition team low its level at the end of a "crunch" and dear, it was truly a total engagement by both team.... just have a look at the stats, look the number and the quality of the tackles. for once, we have had a match, in the last ten years, it was not frequent to see the French palying it truly or at least, at this level... we can find a certain "suffisance" (don't know the english word) in the first 30 minutes, by the English side... But clearly, English played far better in the second half, and they were simply surprised the French didn't give up as usual in the last years.

France were, and should be now, a rugby world power. They've been missing in action for the last decade. If your boys are back, I'm overjoyed. But there is an old English saying: 'One swallow does not a summer make'. In other words, one win against England is meaningless unless your boys back it up in the next match, and the next one, and the one after that. Take down Ireland and Wales too, and we can say that France is definitely back. Lose those games, and the England result will be forgotten fast. Bon chance!

 

[CAB]

France were, and should be now, a rugby world power. They've been missing in action for the last decade. If your boys are back, I'm overjoyed. But there is an old English saying: 'One swallow does not a summer make'. In other words, one win against England is meaningless unless your boys back it up in the next match, and the next one, and the one after that. Take down Ireland and Wales too, and we can say that France is definitely back. Lose those games, and the England result will be forgotten fast. Bon chance!

Even in the great french era, French side has been erratic... if I rememberwell, just before beating ABs twice in a round in NZ in 1994 (with a somptuous try : the try from the end of the world), France had lost to Tonga and Canada in the serie... the best french side in the eighties which did the grandslam lost to Romania ... All along its History, Les bleus have been able to consistently be unconstant lol ... But I agree, the ratio of performances were truly low in the last decade ... France managed anyway to do a final in 2011 (she had lost only due to JOUBERT deciding he was not Boks but NZer this day) ... éclaircie dans un ciel sombre after having been atrocious over Wales in semi and Tonga (again) in pool stage.

I think France will win the 2 match at home, but not both outside...