[2022 Rugby Championship] Round 2 Argentina vs Australia (13/08/2022)

[Ragey Erasmus]

This week in SH rugby be like:

 

[OllyM97]

This week in SH rugby be like:

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After these first two rounds, I'm left scratching my head about all 4 teams. The Pumas absolutely smoked the Wallabies there. Argentina head to NZ now and I think they'll be very competitive in both test matches.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I didn't like the Cheika appointment (due to language) but I've always thought he was a very solid coach with some tough assignments. I have a feeling he might have enjoyed this victory over his old union a little bit.

I was really expecting a lot more from Rennie against England and in the RC. This is really disappointing and on reflection he was lucky to not come away with two losses with the Wallabies pretty much being outplayed for about 140 out of the 160 minutes.

Argentinian wins are like Italian wins in the 6N. They have to happen regularly to keep the feeling that there isn't a walkover fixture. I did say last week the Pumas would never have a better chance to win the RC. It was tongue in cheek, but I did say it!

4 massively flawed sides in my opinion but all capable of great entertainment on their day.

 

[The Seeker]

What a blow out. A reality check for the Aussies.

A fence with barbed wire on top surrounding the pitch. Do they let prisoners play there during the weekdays.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Argentinian wins are like Italian wins in the 6N.

I understand where you are coming from, but i don't think that is a fair comparison.
- We are facing each year what are arguably the best 3 national sides in history. You wanna contest that? Sure, let's look at the WC count and end get done and over with.
- They 3 have very solid internal leagues. We dont even have a professional one.
- There has been a progression. Look at the first 4 TRC's. We lost every single game.
- I've see Arg play two world cup semifinals. How many have Italian fans seen? How about Irish fans? Hell, half the Scottish fans haven't either and many of those who did were being breastfed in the process.

Personally, i see Japan as 10 x more of a threat than Italy. Japan has the right ideas and when they manage to execute them properly they can create a lot of problems to the second echelon of tier 1 teams. And they've done so under pressure on a big stage.

If you wanna talk about WR's success stories, i'd say Japan and Arg are two. Italy is not.


And as bad as 2019's wc was for us, we lost to France by a whisker. A missed kick in the last minutes. Catastrophe, but it happens. Boffelli makes that kick (which he does half the time) and we face Wales (who beat a 14-man french side by 1 point) in the 1/4 finals.
I would have been more than ok with those odds. Suddenly you go from a catastrophe to a fair shot at a WC semi.
One kick.

Sure, Ireland are having a superb moment but had you asked pre 2019's WC who would the top 4 have in their group, Ire-Arg-Sco-Wal and i'm quite sure we wouldn't have topped that list.


My main concern over the last years is how someone we manage to destroy an aspect of the game that we were good at while trying to improve another. It's actually quite remarkable. We improve our scrums but our defense falls apart. We manage to become more dangerous attacking in the open but we cant stop a maul even if our lives depended on it.
We get better at jackling but our discipline crumbles.

Right now, our defense in our 22 mts is pretty, pretty bad, both in close and open play. That is why territory is so important right now.

I have to admit, facts you know, that our mid-year and end of the year internationals' record has been appalling. Dunno why. Might have to do with agenda or something. I really dont know, but the results are bad.
But let me put it this way: Arg faces Wales-Sco in a neutral, say WC scenario tomorrow, and i like our odds. Would you do the same with Italy? We can't win TRC YET just like Italy can't win the 6N. But unlike italy on a decent day we can ruin anyone's party. Italy cannot.

 

[Tooting Carmen]

Brilliant win for The Pumas. I was worried they'd collapse again, but the opposite happened.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

I understand where you are coming from, but i don't think that is a fair comparison.
- We are facing each year what are arguably the best 3 national sides in history. You wanna contest that? Sure, let's look at the WC count and end get done and over with.
- They 3 have very solid internal leagues. We dont even have a professional one.
- There has been a progression. Look at the first 4 TRC's. We lost every single game.
- I've see Arg play two world cup semifinals. How many have Italian fans seen? How about Irish fans? Hell, half the Scottish fans haven't either and many of those who did were being breastfed in the process.

Personally, i see Japan as 10 x more of a threat than Italy. Japan has the right ideas and when they manage to execute them properly they can create a lot of problems to the second echelon of tier 1 teams. And they've done so under pressure on a big stage.

If you wanna talk about WR's success stories, i'd say Japan and Arg are two. Italy is not.


And as bad as 2019's wc was for us, we lost to France by a whisker. A missed kick in the last minutes. Catastrophe, but it happens. Boffelli makes that kick (which he does half the time) and we face Wales (who beat a 14-man french side by 1 point) in the 1/4 finals.
I would have been more than ok with those odds. Suddenly you go from a catastrophe to a fair shot at a WC semi.
One kick.

Sure, Ireland are having a superb moment but had you asked pre 2019's WC who would the top 4 have in their group, Ire-Arg-Sco-Wal and i'm quite sure we wouldn't have topped that list.


My main concern over the last years is how someone we manage to destroy an aspect of the game that we were good at while trying to improve another. It's actually quite remarkable. We improve our scrums but our defense falls apart. We manage to become more dangerous attacking in the open but we cant stop a maul even if our lives depended on it.
We get better at jackling but our discipline crumbles.

Right now, our defense in our 22 mts is pretty, pretty bad, both in close and open play. That is why territory is so important right now.

I have to admit, facts you know, that our mid-year and end of the year internationals' record has been appalling. Dunno why. Might have to do with agenda or something. I really dont know, but the results are bad.
But let me put it this way: Arg faces Wales-Sco in a neutral, say WC scenario tomorrow, and i like our odds. Would you do the same with Italy? We can't win TRC YET just like Italy can't win the 6N. But unlike italy on a decent day we can ruin anyone's party. Italy cannot.

I'm not comparing the Pumas and Italy in terms of current or historic performance. Simply that there are elements in both hemispheres keen for both countries to be kicked out of their respective tournaments, so wins help keep those voices much quieter.

 

[Frankie123]

I'm not comparing the Pumas and Italy in terms of current or historic performance. Simply that there are elements in both hemispheres keen for both countries to be kicked out of their respective tournaments, so wins help keep those voices much quieter.

No one wants to kick Argentina out of the Rugby Championship, as they are clearly the 4th best team in the Southern hemisphere and a two time wc semi finalist. People don't necessarily want to kick Italy out of the 6 nations, they just need to earn it because after 20 years of playing in it they are still losing to Georgia

 

[Frankie123]

This might be the single worst Wallaby performance I've ever seen. I have always been a fan of Rennie, but lets be honest, his record as coach is worse than Deans, Cheika, McKenzie, hell even knuckles Connelly won more games. Rennie owns the worst Wallaby win loss record ever, and his masterplan is to ruin all the young guys confidence by dropping them every other match, while relying on injury prone guys in their mid-30s to save him. Hopeless

 

[Superalexmarket]

 

[Superalexmarket]

I've been there...

 

[Jaguares]

I didn't like the Cheika appointment (due to language) but I've always thought he was a very solid coach with some tough assignments. I have a feeling he might have enjoyed this victory over his old union a little bit.

He's a good head coach for short periods. And don't forget that he knows Aussie Rugby like the back of his hand, same as Eddie Jones.

Australia doesn't have enough depth and had to faced 2 Aussie head coaches. It's a lethal combo

 

[Derpus]

Can always trust the Wallabies to find yet another way to further dissapoint fans who, at this point, expect almost nothing.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

No one wants to kick Argentina out of the Rugby Championship, as they are clearly the 4th best team in the Southern hemisphere and a two time wc semi finalist. People don't necessarily want to kick Italy out of the 6 nations, they just need to earn it because after 20 years of playing in it they are still losing to Georgia

SA rugby appear to have backed away from committing to SANZAAR until 2030, now committing only until 2025. If they pull off a move to the 6N and blow up SANZAAR I think we have to be realistic about whether that means the Pumas will be abandoned in the same way as Super Rugby finalists the Jaguares were excluded. Its essential the Pumas show themselves to be a competitive force in the competition. Even though that didnt help the Jaguares it might help the Pumas. The reason referenced by Marinos of Australia for not having Japan in the RC is that they haven't shown themselves to be consistently competitive at the Tier1 level.

Of course, nobody is stupid enough to publicly say that if SA join the 6N then participation of Italy and Argentina in their respective tournaments may be revisited, but I'd be fairly confident these thoughts are being voiced behind closed doors.

 

[Frankie123]

SA rugby appear to have backed away from committing to SANZAAR until 2030, now committing only until 2025. If they pull off a move to the 6N and blow up SANZAAR I think we have to be realistic about whether that means the Pumas will be abandoned in the same way as Super Rugby finalists the Jaguares were excluded. Its essential the Pumas show themselves to be a competitive force in the competition. Even though that didnt help the Jaguares it might help the Pumas. The reason referenced by Marinos of Australia for not having Japan in the RC is that they haven't shown themselves to be consistently competitive at the Tier1 level.

Of course, nobody is stupid enough to publicly say that if SA join the 6N then participation of Italy and Argentina in their respective tournaments may be revisited, but I'd be fairly confident these thoughts are being voiced behind closed doors.

To be fair Argentina have beaten the All blacks and just beat Australia 48-17. They have made 2 World Cup semi finals, let's not make out like that aren't a competitive tier 1 nation

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

To be fair Argentina have beaten the All blacks and just beat Australia 48-17. They have made 2 World Cup semi finals, let's not make out like that aren't a competitive tier 1 nation

They've consistently been the second lowest ranked tier 1 nation over the past decade. They'd beaten NZ and reached two RWC semis and still the Jagaures were expelled.

If Argentina were to become detached from the other Tier 1s and fell behind say Japan and SA left the RC then I think it highly unlikely they'd be allowed to remain in the RC unless they continue to pick up the sort of positive results you reference (even if those results are arguably a result of their opponents getting weaker rather than the Pumas improving). My point is simply that every result Argentina can pick up in the RC is good for both the short and long term.

 

[Derpus]

They've consistently been the second lowest ranked tier 1 nation over the past decade. They'd beaten NZ and reached two RWC semis and still the Jagaures were expelled.

If Argentina were to become detached from the other Tier 1s and fell behind say Japan and SA left the RC then I think it highly unlikely they'd be allowed to remain in the RC unless they continue to pick up the sort of positive results you reference (even if those results are arguably a result of their opponents getting weaker rather than the Pumas improving). My point is simply that every result Argentina can pick up in the RC is good for both the short and long term.

You'd assume SA leaving the RC would be the end of the RC. A pacific cup of some kind would probably take its place and rugby's dive into irrelevance around these parts would accelerate.

Argentina are stuck halfway between professionalism and amateurism. Not sure where they go from here but part time participation in other countries comps probably won't see them get any better.

 

[Bruce_ma gooshvili]

All signs point to disarray at the Wallabies. I read they had 16 injuries and now their defence coach quits after last weekends debacle. The only silver lining is this is far enough out from the RWC for them to get back on track.

Australia: Defence coach Matt Taylor leaves Wallabies coaching team

Matt Taylor has stepped down from his position as defence coach for the Wallabies after taking up the role in Dave Rennie's staff in 2020.

www.planetrugby.com

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

I know you're not throwing a jab. Don't worry.
My issue is the evidence i see doesnt appear to back up your stance.

They've consistently been the second lowest ranked tier 1 nation over the past decade.

When was the last time Wales beat the all-blacks?
When was the last time Scotland beat South Africa?
Arg and Ire faced 4 times in WCs. We won 3 and lost the other by one point.


Let me be honest about how i've felt when facing other tier 1 nations during WCs. By no means does this represent what most arg's feel.

- South Africa and NZ, we need a small miracle.
- England. Depends on the year but they generally got out number for some reason. Rock beats scissors kinda thing. Even when they've a bad year (say clearly under Irish/French level) they seem to counter us rather effectively for some reason. Styles make fights, etc.
- Fra, Ire, Wal, Scot, Aus: clumping a bit too much in this group, granted. If we face them in a mid/end of-year series, i prolly wouldn't bet on us.
If we face em on a WC, i like our odds. Not always, but more often than not. I know many would say Ire/Fra should deserve a league of their own. Not sure, maybe. I think history does play a role and the pressure is on them.

To be honest, and i'd be interested to hear what others have to say, i don't think the nations in this group feel rather comfy when facing us either. WC, not friendly.
- Ita and Jap: our game to lose. Still.

That's one of the reasons i'm optimistic about 2023. Chances are we end up second in our group and get to face either Aus or Wales. The pecking order in our group seems clearer. And if (daydreaming) we make it to the semi we would face an arguably better team but one which's path has been considerably harder.
I like those odds.

If you were to tell me right now we get to face Wales on 1/4 and if we win, Ireland on a semi, i'd reply "where do i need to sign".

We are a very temperamental team, and that is one of our worst flaws. But when the stars align we can shine. And we tend to punch above our weight in WCs.
Consistency is not our strength and that is why WCs probably favor us. Group games are mostly locked from minute 0 with a few exceptions. If we manage to align those stars in 1 or 2 games, vs Wales/Aus and battered Ireland or France, who knows?
Not the most likely scenario but not that far-fetched either.

I for one don't give a flying turd about 2022 nor 2023 TRC's. Sure, i'd like to see Arg do well and win, but I am giving Cheika a blank check till the world cup.
He knows our players, he knows the opponents, he knows what's at stake and i consider him a smart man. If he believes this is the right time to take chances, experiment and try out things, well, i'm ok with that. I trust his judgment.
He can lose every game by a landslide until the 8th of nov 2023. Cruz's stamp of approval.

I expect to see dividends after that, tho.

PS: I'll ***** and moan about every knock-on and fwd pass on these boards, but that's a completely different matter.

 

[Derpus]

^^^
Have you ever beaten Aus in a world cup? I mean...