Tri Nations: Springboks - All Blacks @ Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium (20-8-2011, 15:05)

[big ginger 8]

I do feel that Richie McCaw has hardly played any rugby this year and he is not gonna face any competition in the pool stages

Um yeah Duasatoir is a horrible player.

 

[Larksea]

SBW needs to do more then just silence the critics he needs to silence Ma'a Nonu's form cause we all know SBW is great with the off load but can he control JDV and Fourie on the defense side.I'm not worried about SBW attacking abilities but where he is on defense can he be that rock in the AB's backline which Nonu is....well see this week.

Nonu a rock? I think you need to get your facts straight.

Look at the aussie game. Nonu was credited with 4 tackles and two missed tackles for the entire game, SBW made 4 tackles, no missed in only ~12min he was on the field. go back to the Bok game and look at what Nonu was doing when Smit scored a try pretty much right at Nonu's feet. It was a pathetic effort, if nonu had gone up and attacked smit with Carter that try whould not have been scored. and I doubt you will ever see sonny bill sit back and show an attacker the try line like nonu did.

Nonu is not the rock in the AB's backline, if anything he is the weakest link and the fact he sits between Carter and Smith who are two of the best defenders in world rugby is saving his arse.

Nonu adds great energy to the All Blacks attacking effort and he's been the source of many trys, important trys over the last few years. But he's not a smart defender, he's shown some promising signs on defence since he became the first choice 12 but he's disapointed so far this year.

 

[DJRonStar]

Oh gosh another Nonu hater......

How can Nonu be the weakest link in the AB backline?? If anything he is the one player who can break a game open and make the difference between winning and losing. All Blacks vs South Africa 2010 - With 2 minutes to go, Nonu breaks through John Smit's tackle goes straight through and flicks it out to Dagg to score the winning try.

Dissapointed so far this year?? Then why has GH and co placed him as the first choice number 12. You must know more than them!! Stop hating the guy....

 

[ACT1NUP]

Nonus defence isn't that bad, so he had an off game on defence, most do at some point. Using one game is hardly a case against Nonus defence. Just remember who has been the starting 12 for sometime. ABs have never been thrashed, hardly concede many tries, and infact barely lost. Nonu can't be that bad if he has played a large part in all of that and I don't see teams specfically targeting him as a weak link. What happened in the Smit try has happened and there could be a number of reasons as to why it happened. If Nonu charged Smit with Carter they may have stopped him, but then they would have probably scored on the next phase but really we'll never know. Be intersting to see how Williams goes against one of the more experienced midfield combinations in world rugby he needs a massive game to even get a second thought. In all reality though Nonu and Smith have the 12 and 13 jerseys locked in for the world cup.

 

[JW.]

Nonu and Smith are the best centreship pairing NZ and propably the world have got. I rate Nonu much higher as an International than SBW, or anyone else for that matter.

Putting my money on the Springboks I could see them winning this, altough the AB's team is still class this game could be won on forward dominance and defence. And SA can do both very very well. Lets see how NZ cope a full game without Carter!

 

[lance2010]

Nonu a rock? I think you need to get your facts straight.

Look at the aussie game. Nonu was credited with 4 tackles and two missed tackles for the entire game, SBW made 4 tackles, no missed in only ~12min he was on the field. go back to the Bok game and look at what Nonu was doing when Smit scored a try pretty much right at Nonu's feet. It was a pathetic effort, if nonu had gone up and attacked smit with Carter that try whould not have been scored. and I doubt you will ever see sonny bill sit back and show an attacker the try line like nonu did.

Nonu is not the rock in the AB's backline, if anything he is the weakest link and the fact he sits between Carter and Smith who are two of the best defenders in world rugby is saving his arse.

Nonu adds great energy to the All Blacks attacking effort and he's been the source of many trys, important trys over the last few years. But he's not a smart defender, he's shown some promising signs on defence since he became the first choice 12 but he's disapointed so far this year.

Yes of course Nonu only had four tackles this must say something,the Aussie are scared to run it at Nonu if someone is the weakest link **** wouldn't you run at that person all day to test him.

What do you mean he has disappointed this year are you talking about prior to the AB's campaign or now?

SBW has his chance at 12 why cause Nonu is not in the team he was only in the touring squad as cover so really he is been rested.

 

[Larksea]

I'm not hating Nonu, I'm being realistic. Players aren't just great or crap they have strenths and weaknesses. I think people see his running game and think the sun shines out of his arse and he can't do any wrong. Nonu's strength is his attacking game and the energy he brings to the AB's attacking effort but he clearly has some issues with his defence he's done ok at times at test level but so far this year he has been the weak link as far as defence goes.

SBW doesn't have the same energy on attack. he's more calculating. Looks for missmatches and tries to draw in defenders and produce offloads, use his size to commit players or bust through them if they dont commit enough. On defence overall I think he's stronger than Nonu, he has his critics as far as defence goes but the reality is on the field he works well in the line and makes tackles, sometimes very big tackles. I think he's clearly ahead of nonu in that area of the game.

People seem to have completely written SBW off. The reality is he has got his chance now, a big game will put a lot of pressure on nonu. In particular if he can be the attacking threat everyone knows he is and also make 8-10 good tackles and no misses he will shadow anything nonu has done in tests this year.

So far Nonu has showed his hand, now it's time for SBW to lay his cards down. The form/pecking order wont be established untill all the cards are on the table.

 

[donmcdazzle]

SBW doesn't have the same energy on attack. he's more calculating. Looks for missmatches and tries to draw in defenders and produce offloads, use his size to commit players or bust through them if they dont commit enough.

I think you're giving SBW a bit too much credit. He either whips a big skip pass or runs half pace to the line and offloads, most of the time to a player in a worse position than him. I would love to see him just run the ball hard, he hardly ever does it which is weird given his size/speed. Sometimes you need your 12 to just cart it up at pace and make hard yards. He would be a better player if he did every now and then. Might make his offloading more effective.

Agree on his defence by the way. His positioning and technique are pretty good most of the time. And he is a very good counter rucker. I thought he would be good on attack and not so good on defence, turns out my concerns were round the wrong way.

 

[Darwin]

I'm not hating Nonu, I'm being realistic. Players aren't just great or crap they have strenths and weaknesses. I think people see his running game and think the sun shines out of his arse and he can't do any wrong. Nonu's strength is his attacking game and the energy he brings to the AB's attacking effort but he clearly has some issues with his defence he's done ok at times at test level but so far this year he has been the weak link as far as defence goes.

SBW doesn't have the same energy on attack. he's more calculating. Looks for missmatches and tries to draw in defenders and produce offloads, use his size to commit players or bust through them if they dont commit enough. On defence overall I think he's stronger than Nonu, he has his critics as far as defence goes but the reality is on the field he works well in the line and makes tackles, sometimes very big tackles. I think he's clearly ahead of nonu in that area of the game.

People seem to have completely written SBW off. The reality is he has got his chance now, a big game will put a lot of pressure on nonu. In particular if he can be the attacking threat everyone knows he is and also make 8-10 good tackles and no misses he will shadow anything nonu has done in tests this year.

So far Nonu has showed his hand, now it's time for SBW to lay his cards down. The form/pecking order wont be established untill all the cards are on the table.

I disagree that Nonu is a weak link on defence - he (along with SBW) are both very strong defensive players. You can't just judge the defensive ability of SBW and Nonu based on the tackling stats from a single match; if you want to compare their stats you need to compare how they have done over the whole season. If you do that you will see they have strikingly similar defensive records.

Collated stats from http://www.ruggastats.com:

Nonu - 8.5 tackles / 80 mins at 88.1%
SBW - 9.0 tackles / 80 mins at 88.9%

Stats from www.foxsports.com.au:

Nonu - 7.7 tackles / 80 mins at 84.3%
SBW - 9.0 tackles / 80 mins at 83.6%

Stats from http://www.verusco.com (the same source of stats as the ruggastats site) suggest that Nonu has made 24/27 (88.9%) tackles this season in international rugby - statistically at least, he is not weak link on defence!

Of course stats don't tell the whole story, but I don't think there is anything at all wrong with Nonu's defence.

 

[Larksea]

I think I made it pretty clear that my observations are based on the two tri nations test matches played so far this season. nonu only being credited with 4 tackles with 2 missed tackles in the aussie game and the very poor effort when john Smit scored his try in the bok game.

Also on my observation that Dan Carter was also asked to do a heavy workload on defence and at times he seemed very frustrated. He would get up from tackles and shout and shrug towards his outside. He seemed to have to make tackles wide of the normal 10 channel. I believe he made a lot of tackles that nonu should have made. That kinda goes back to a historical weakness of nonu's game. In his early carrier on defence he used to stay down and out of play a lot on defence. Where players would quickley get up and back into the line nonu would take his time and walk about behind the line. He's better now but I think some times he is still prone to fluffing around out of play at times.

They were pretty poor efforts from Nonu, I'm not trying to convince the world that Nonu sucks and should be dropped. i'm mearly pointing out that his game isn't as complete as people seem to suggest. And that it is an area SBW can prove himself stronger in and put pressure on nonu's selection.

One area of his defence that looked better against Aussie despite the stats was I saw him come up in a good line with conrad to follow kicks down field and it was an area the AB's have obviously improved on since hong kong last year. If they had been as good at following up kicks in that game as they were in Auckland the AB's would have won that game.

 

[Darwin]

I think I made it pretty clear that my observations are based on the two tri nations test matches played so far this season. nonu only being credited with 4 tackles with 2 missed tackles in the aussie game and the very poor effort when john Smit scored his try in the bok game.

Also on my observation that Dan Carter was also asked to do a heavy workload on defence and at times he seemed very frustrated. He would get up from tackles and shout and shrug towards his outside. He seemed to have to make tackles wide of the normal 10 channel. I believe he made a lot of tackles that nonu should have made. That kinda goes back to a historical weakness of nonu's game. In his early carrier on defence he used to stay down and out of play a lot on defence. Where players would quickley get up and back into the line nonu would take his time and walk about behind the line. He's better now but I think some times he is still prone to fluffing around out of play at times.

They were pretty poor efforts from Nonu, I'm not trying to convince the world that Nonu sucks and should be dropped. i'm mearly pointing out that his game isn't as complete as people seem to suggest. And that it is an area SBW can prove himself stronger in and put pressure on nonu's selection.

One area of his defence that looked better against Aussie despite the stats was I saw him come up in a good line with conrad to follow kicks down field and it was an area the AB's have obviously improved on since hong kong last year. If they had been as good at following up kicks in that game as they were in Auckland the AB's would have won that game.

Yes I'm sure everyone is aware that you think Nonu is a poor defender based on the game vs Australia and one tackle vs South Africa

I was simply pointing out you can't just base your judgement on a players defence on one game (+ one tackle)! It would be like me looking at the South Africa match stats and going: OMG, SBW MADE ONLY ONE TACKLE IN 27 MINS, NONU MADE 8 TACKLES IN 66 MINS.... SBW IS CLEARLY NOT UP TO IT AS HE IS NOT MAKING ENOUGH TACKLES!?!?!?!

I think Nonu has had issues on defence in the past, but he is a very good defensive player these days. Carter's heavy workload in defence versus Australia had a lot to do with the way Cooper drifts across field with the ball in hand.... If you look at both the South Africa matches vs Australia the South African 10 on both occasions made far more tackles than the 12 for this exact reason. I'm not suggesting Nonu is perfect on defence, as he clearly does make the odd mistake, just that if you look over the last few seasons (rather than just one game) I think that Nonu's defence is at the same (high) level as SBW's.

 

[ACT1NUP]

End of the day SBW is facing his biggest test by far, he hasn't started a test against any oppostion of note and has come in as a substitute against tiring teams thus his tackling stats would be up there wouldn't they. If he doesn't perform in attack and defence I'd like to see him dropped. Too many quality options out there amongst the backs.

 

[donmcdazzle]

One area of his defence that looked better against Aussie despite the stats was I saw him come up in a good line with conrad to follow kicks down field and it was an area the AB's have obviously improved on since hong kong last year. If they had been as good at following up kicks in that game as they were in Auckland the AB's would have won that game.

Haha still trying to clear Donald of any guilt regarding his last minute shocker of a kick up the middle. Come on, he lost us the game with his missed goal kick and that shocker up the middle. I don't think you can judge the whole game's defensive line chasing kicks on a last minute effort where we had a quick turnover and good old Donnie just whacked it down Beale's throat. Should've kicked it dead or purposely knocked it on. No advantage, our scrum. Waste another 30 seconds or so then kick it out for the win. Only the most biased, one eyed Donald fan would be defending him for his brain melt.

 

[Sneaki]

I think people are way too harsh on Nonu for that Smit try. A hooker running onto the ball that close to the line and in a low body position should always score from that position, especially running at backs.

 

[smartcooky]

Haha still trying to clear Donald of any guilt regarding his last minute shocker of a kick up the middle. Come on, he lost us the game with his missed goal kick and that shocker up the middle. I don't think you can judge the whole game's defensive line chasing kicks on a last minute effort where we had a quick turnover and good old Donnie just whacked it down Beale's throat. Should've kicked it dead......

Yep. There is no doubt whatsoever. Donald's "brain fart" kick was his last act in an All Black jumper, and with good reason, although I don't see how you work this one out

.....or purposely knocked it on. No advantage, our scrum. Waste another 30 seconds or so then kick it out for the win. Only the most biased, one eyed Donald fan would be defending him for his brain melt.

There was no advantage being played, and if Donald had knocked it on, it would be Aussie feed to the scrum, unless you are implying with "our scrum" that we were so much better, it didn't matter who put the ball in!

 

[SavageLez]

Um yeah Duasatoir is a horrible player.

Agreed, Duasatoir is great but one game against France is not going to make him fit!

I am going to jinx Victor Matfield here but.....did you know that Victor Matfield has not lost to the All Blacks as Captain for the Springboks.

He is Captain this weekend, will he prevail?

 

[Darwin]

I am going to jinx Victor Matfield here but.....did you know that Victor Matfield has not lost to the All Blacks as Captain for the Springboks.

He is Captain this weekend, will he prevail?

Apart from this game.....

He has only won 1/2 test matches against the AB's as captain

 

[Seaton]

I am going to jinx Victor Matfield here but.....did you know that Victor Matfield has not lost to the All Blacks as Captain for the Springboks.

He is Captain this weekend, will he prevail?

*Ahem*

What about the 19-0 game in 2008? If I remember correctly Smit was only fit in time to play Aus, could be wrong though...

 

[Seaton]

Apart from this game.....

He has only won 1/2 test matches against the AB's as captain

Ba'h! Beat me to it.

Going over the 2008 Tri Nations, it also seems that mister Matfeild wasn't on the pitch to close out the game, courtesy of a yellow card in the 73rd minute.

Lol, unfortunately we have gone from Matfield having never lost to the All Blacks, to having lost twice and never seen out a win :lol:

 

[Darwin]

*Ahem*

What about the 19-0 game in 2008? If I remember correctly Smit was only fit in time to play Aus, could be wrong though...

Yep looks like you are right...

Ba'h! Beat me to it.

Going over the 2008 Tri Nations, it also seems that mister Matfeild wasn't on the pitch to close out the game, courtesy of a yellow card in the 73rd minute.

Lol, unfortunately we have gone from Matfield having never lost to the All Blacks, to having lost twice and never seen out a win :lol:

Yeah, Matfields test record vs the AB's as captain is getting worse by the second!