England 2023/24

[TRF_Olyy]

Can't see Hill getting in now that CCS has taken his chance. This season would've been his opportunity but with CCS there now, and Chessum to return, I can't see it. Then again with Dombrandt and Roots dropping down the pecking order never say never

Hope Obano is back in but with the emergence of Baxter (and the return of Genge) it'll be a tough ask considering his lack of international experience - would probably need an injury (or retirement) to be in contention

Think Ford will definitely be back in the training squad but not sure he should/would be in the 23 - Borthwick loves him though so he might just go straight back to start

Main thing I wanna see is Langdon in, one of the young 12s and any new tighthead - be it Davison, Hill, Harper, Street etc. I'd sacrifice a backrow squad spot, if I had to, to have a new tighthead just so we can be getting people exposed to the environment and training with the squad

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Can't see Hill getting in now that CCS has taken his chance. This season would've been his opportunity but with CCS there now, and Chessum to return, I can't see it. Then again with Dombrandt and Roots dropping down the pecking order never say never

Hope Obano is back in but with the emergence of Baxter (and the return of Genge) it'll be a tough ask considering his lack of international experience - would probably need an injury (or retirement) to be in contention

Think Ford will definitely be back in the training squad but not sure he should/would be in the 23 - Borthwick loves him though so he might just go straight back to start

Main thing I wanna see is Langdon in, one of the young 12s and any new tighthead - be it Davison, Hill, Harper, Street etc. I'd sacrifice a backrow squad spot, if I had to, to have a new tighthead just so we can be getting people exposed to the environment and training with the squad

It's amazing how a red in a club game at the wrong time can potentially torpedo a player's entire England career.

I'd still have obano in tbh, I think he has done enough to be there on merit and, if his form continues, don't seea reason to be leapfrogged.

If anything Genge is the one who needs to get some form back.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If anything Genge is the one who needs to get some form back.

No arguments there from me, I've always been a big Obano cheerleader, just thinking what SB will pick and Genge is one of his vice captains

 

[BPM]

It's amazing how a red in the club haha at the wrong time can potentially torpedo a player's entire England career.

I'd still have obano in tbh, I think he has done enough to be there on merit and, if his form continues, don't seea reason to be leapfrogged.

If anything Genge is the one who needs to get some form back.

I rate Obano but in order to be 'leapfrogged' I'd argue you need to be a bit more established first. For one reason or another (mostly injury) he hasn't really laid down any kind of marker with England.

Baxter took his chance in NZ so I think he's the one who will need to be leapfrogged rather than vice versa.

 

[Geordie]

Can't see Hill getting in now that CCS has taken his chance. This season would've been his opportunity but with CCS there now, and Chessum to return, I can't see it. Then again with Dombrandt and Roots dropping down the pecking order never say never

I think Chessum is going to be an interesting watch. Its already been discussed previously but I'd prefer him to be established at 6 OR lock...not just floating between the two. Thatll come down to a Tigers decision I guess....but I do think it might be 6. If that's the case Goodbye Roots and maybe yes Hill won't make it.

I have a suspicion Obano might not make it (Marler, Genge, Baxter, Iyogun)...but I agree Genge needs to really come back firing.

How is Harper looking for Sale?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

How is Harper looking for Sale?

Came back from injury in poor form but got better with game time and ended the season really strongly - happens every time, really (and he's had a bad run with injury). Hopefully he's past his injury troubles now and he starts the season well and continues from there - Schonert not due back until October so he'll be first choice for a while

 

[Geordie]

Came back from injury in poor form but got better with game time and ended the season really strongly - happens every time, really (and he's had a bad run with injury). Hopefully he's past his injury troubles now and he starts the season well and continues from there - Schonert not due back until October so he'll be first choice for a while

Do you think he has the raw ingredients to make a good International tighthead?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Do you think he has the raw ingredients to make a good International tighthead?

Maybe, he's definitely got the size for it and on his day he can be a very good scrummager
He's only 23 and has probably missed a season, maybe season and a half worth of development due to injuries so he's a work in progress rather than someone I'd say could drop into the 23 tomorrow.

Hoping he plays in the A game this autumn and we go from there

 

[Geordie]

Maybe, he's definitely got the size for it and on his day he can be a very good scrummager
He's only 23 and has probably missed a season, maybe season and a half worth of development due to injuries so he's a work in progress rather than someone I'd say could drop into the 23 tomorrow.

Hoping he plays in the A game this autumn and we go from there

I'm struggling to see any TH forcing their way in at the moment...even an old favorite of mine Trevor Davison who id gove a shot to but can't see SB.

Unless Chieka can get Joe Hayes to really step up...?

But like the youngsters coming throigh at LH (Baxter, Iyogun, Haffar, Brantingham) , soon they could be coming through at TH..(Fordjour, Sela, Fasogabon, Harper..) just a year or rwo down the line.

 

[BPM]

I think Chessum is going to be an interesting watch. Its already been discussed previously but I'd prefer him to be established at 6 OR lock...not just floating between the two. Thatll come down to a Tigers decision I guess....but I do think it might be 6. If that's the case Goodbye Roots and maybe yes Hill won't make it.

I have a suspicion Obano might not make it (Marler, Genge, Baxter, Iyogun)...but I agree Genge needs to really come back firing.

How is Harper looking for Sale?

Tough one. Chessum is England's 3rd best lock which should see him covering the second row from the bench. However, he's also a pretty good 6 and potentially 2nd choice for that spot behind CCS (in Borthwick's mind not mine). Either way, I see him as being a high quality option to bring off the bench. I just want that to be in the position he's playing in for Tigers. I felt a bit sorry for Coles in NZ as he came on to play 6 after playing lock all season for Saints. I don't want more of that if it can be avoided.

Re. Loosehead, Marler's contract is due to be up at the end of the season and I am expecting him to retire. Baxter has shown he can step up so if Genge is fit, I'd argue there is more benefit in giving those caps to other, younger players who will be around for the full RWC cycle. I also wouldn't say Iyogun's inclusion as a late replacement really counts for much unless he really impressed in training - he was never likely to play.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

In Borthwicks mind is Chessum behind CCS?

 

[Saintjay]

In Borthwicks mind is Chessum behind CCS?

That's a tough one. At the moment I'd pick on who's in better form in training and club performances.

I might be wrong but i don't know if there's enough to say one is all round better. Borthwick does seem to like CCS though.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I love Chessum, but if Martin is playing and being hooked after 6 I'd like a more like for like replacement in a beast lock coming on (not that we've got a ready made one yet).

I see Chessum as a better Itoje and I'd like to see him start with Martin at some point. News Tuima to step up this season.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

That's a tough one. At the moment I'd pick on who's in better form in training and club performances.

I might be wrong but i don't know if there's enough to say one is all round better. Borthwick does seem to like CCS though.

Less better or worse, more which style do you want. Chessum the athlete / line out option. CCS the big hitter / heavy duty carrier. Our need has probably been more for the latter, Martin's introduction notwithstanding. Fully expect CCS to become more of an 8 over time.

Itoje's had a bit of a renaissance but is about to turn 30. When SB starts looking ahead to 27 RWC he might well be tempted by the younger, taller Chessum for the athletic lock position. Itoje might hold his form / athleticism but that could also deteriorate quite quickly, so it might become whoever's in form between those 2.

SB has plenty of back 5 options from those we already know about and there will be others. J Willis might return to complicate the mix further.

Just the front row to go…..

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

It's amazing how a red in a club game at the wrong time can potentially torpedo a player's entire England career.

I'd still have obano in tbh, I think he has done enough to be there on merit and, if his form continues, don't seea reason to be leapfrogged.

If anything Genge is the one who needs to get some form back.

And a red that was very harsh in my opinion.

 

[higgik]

Less better or worse, more which style do you want. Chessum the athlete / line out option. CCS the big hitter / heavy duty carrier. Our need has probably been more for the latter, Martin's introduction notwithstanding. Fully expect CCS to become more of an 8 over time.

Itoje's had a bit of a renaissance but is about to turn 30. When SB starts looking ahead to 27 RWC he might well be tempted by the younger, taller Chessum for the athletic lock position. Itoje might hold his form / athleticism but that could also deteriorate quite quickly, so it might become whoever's in form between those 2.

SB has plenty of back 5 options from those we already know about and there will be others. J Willis might return to complicate the mix further.

Just the front row to go…..

But why should the number on shirt matter?
CCS could pack down at 6 for certain situations, allowing a faster more athletic 8 to break the line before defence can be ready.
Same as the 7, part of the system is to make attacks run down blind alleys so the outside and inside defender need to create the 'pocket'. Hence Underhill will he at 7 and attacking the inside shoulder of the 10.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Why England should take Joe Marler’s advice and build for the future in the front row

The All Blacks showed up a weakness at the coal face which showed England need to bring powerful new scrummagers through

www.rugbypass.com

 

[Which Tyler]

A FFS, not again.

For love of any/all the gods - let the kids grow adult skeletons before putting 2 tonnes through them!
I don't care how good their technique is, or how much they can lift in the gym.
There's just no getting around the fact that cartilage isn't as strong as bone.

 

[AngloScotsHybrid]

He looks small for a tighthead but I know its power and technique that is important.

 

[Geordie]

Theres been some brilliant small tightheads...

The trend at the moment "seems" to be Tight heads getting bigger and bigger...but i just prefer a tighthead of any size who can scrummage a rhino...not one who is a playmaker hanging out in the backs like too many of our recent ones have been.