[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 4: England vs Scotland (12/03/2017)

[RedruthRFC]

Scotland/Population

5.295 million

England/Population

53.01 million



England 1,990,988 registered players.

Scotland 38,500 registered players.

Truly David vs Goliath.

It's quite sad how much pleasure the English get from beating the wee man over and over.

Another funny stat, England have a 3rd of the registered players in the world. 1,990,988/4,504,188

Sadder again to turn up at a late juncture and offer this contribution. As international sport turns out to be about pure numbers, I look forward to India dominating as they do at the Commonwealth Games.

 

[Makos]

Sadder again to turn up at a late juncture and offer this contribution. As international sport turns out to be about pure numbers, I look forward to India dominating as they do at the Commonwealth Games.

They won't do that until they get a Kiwi captain and an Aussie coach :lol:

 

[Zed]

Joseph!

That's why he's playing 13

Jesus, he had a blinder! The awareness he showed for the pass to Watson for his try was sublime. Pleasure to watch. And I probably have to retract my earlier statements about Farrell being an average 12, I thought he had a stormer.

- - - Updated - - -

"scotlands backs are hands down better than England's"

lol

 

[Raggs]

Finding the low ratings of Hughes funny from the press now (and other posts etc, Daily Mail scored him lowest in the starting XV apart from Daly with a 5 cos he went off). The guy carried for the same total meters as every other member of the pack in the 23 (starters and finishers!), beat more defenders than the starters and finishers (pack only), and was one of two pack members to make a clean break. Made as many tackles as Lawes, and only 1 less than Itoje (Hughes did admittedly miss 1 as well). Oh and he was off after 52 minutes (where if Peat reads this, please point out to Mikey Brown that when you're still accusing a player of doing bad things, when he's not even on the pitch any more, perhaps he should consider his entire watching of the match...).

 

[The Jones Boy]

Nathan Hughes is dynamite and he knows it, Eddie Jones knows it and the paper talk is cheap. The English public will come to embrace Hughes in the same way they enjoy the Vunipolas. These big lumps know what they are doing and they get results. Expect to see more of him because Jones likes him and i can see why, he's enormous, fearless and real talent.
I enjoy watching him going on his rampaging charges at the opposition line.

I'd like to say I can't wait to see the England vs All Black clash but I'm gonna have to wait because it's not until 2018 is it?
By which time England will have been unbeaten for 50+? games...

 

[Yoshimitsu]

So it's not just me then?

Just a point on how the rucks are being refereed, I felt that at the start of the 6N's teams were getting too many turnovers and penalties for holding on by using the tackling player as support and stopping the ball being placed back quickly or by helping to pull them down and not clearly releasing. Wales and Scotland especially. It seems that the ref's are a bit wiser to it now, so personally Mathieu Raynal is getting some unfair criticism.

I wondered if the directives to refs had changed, but more likely coaches have studied how refs operate and changed instructions to players accordingly. A couple of seconds makes a massive difference in a teams ability to defend. Until yesterday there's been a massive amount of spoiling as tacklers fail to release the player / ball until expressly instructed to by the ref. Slow ball ensues and attacking threats are more easily nullified. Yesterday Scotland were not allowed (in my view correctly) to do this and paid a heavy price.

Whilst we're at it. Outcome based Reffing has always annoyed me and yesterday illustrated why again. Fraser Brown both lifts beyond horizontal and then completes the tackle by driving though with force. This is a world away from say Finn russell being flown into by an airborne Biggar. Daly's head and neck are clearly compromised regardless of the first point of contact with the ground. If player safety is the driver then that's the type of incident you surely want to eliminate?

 

[Raggs]

When it comes to tip tackles and taking people out in the air, there is very little difference in the physics. You take out the legs of someone in the air who's moving at pace, they'll spin. The higher the player and greater the speed, the more the player will spin. If you take a player out in the air whilst travelling at high speed, you'll spin them onto their head or close. There's no luck involved.

Should have been a red card not a yellow yesterday.

 

[McTallshort]

They won't do that until they get a Kiwi captain and an Aussie coach :lol:

They could always poach and English centre living in South Africa...

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Nah Hughes is useless and light years behind Billy V.

Along with Hartley who IMO was on par with Hughes maybe even worse IMO.

England also need to start using sink a lot more now aswell IMO.

 

[Goodey]

Tremendous performance from England and I hope that players like Ford and Joseph have reminded a few people which backline scored all those tries against Australia last year. Scottish defence was cut to ribbons by some beautiful set play in the first 50 minutes. After that it was pretty much an exhibition game and I'm not really fussed about any of the messing about we saw later on, it wasn't test match rugby any more.

To answer a few points in the thread,

Hughes is fine, not being as good as Vunipola is hardly criminal.

Agree with rangerancher that Scotland had their borderline (to be generous) slowing tactics penalised more than earlier in the tournament and they failed to react to it.

Don't think the ref made many wrong calls and was consistent, though his favouring the attacking side was one of the things that led to a high scoring game. Hartley was fortunate not to get 10 minutes after twisting a neck in the ruck. Fraser Brown was fortunate not to get a red, but in the sense that after tipping Daly up he had no control of the outcome which is what you are judged on. The laws were applied correctly to result in a yellow.

- - - Updated - - -

When England have everyone fit Lawes should come out, yes it is harsh on him but he is falling behind. Defending as a second row (all middle third) but scrummaginging as a flanker is asking too much of your team mates. He would need to be carrying brilliantly to hold up his end of the bargain but Kruis is just as good a carrier as him as well as being better in the set piece. Robshaw obviously comes back in for Wood into the 23.

 

[ncurd]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39243601

I took great joy in reading this....I'm a bad person.

 

[TommiG88]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39243601

I took great joy in reading this....I'm a bad person.

I enjoyed it too!

 

[Reiser99]

Hmm in terms of the tip tackle, yes he went beyond the horizontal and landed on his back (just), but also there was no attempt to bring the player down safely and Brown kept the same amount of force the whole way, he try to stop when he realised his mistake (though you could argue that's when a player lands on their head, as changing halfway, messes it up completely). Personally for me it's red because he made no attempt to bring him down safely, the result being Daly had to go off eventually.

Hughes had a much better game, but he'll be one of Eddie's finishers, when the game opens up. Against Italy he was poor and showed he has no skill at turning over in the ruck (hands constantly on the floor). This week he showed he has the skill, but is still behind Billy.

 

[Goodey]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/39243601

I took great joy in reading this....I'm a bad person.

agreed, bonus points for the use of 'shellacking'

 

[McTallshort]

of course you are...but so am I.

Watched the game again this morning (up with a poorly 3 year old) got to say Lawes had a belter of a game my MOTM by a mile.

Questions for Scotland: what was with the silly stuff all the time? Its no good squaring up to the English fowards all the time if you let them bash up in the contact area.

 

[Maverick1987]

Nah Hughes is useless and light years behind Billy V.

Along with Hartley who IMO was on par with Hughes maybe even worse IMO.

England also need to start using sink a lot more now aswell IMO.

That's not what I saw . Hughes always offered himself up and carried well . Takes 2 or 3 players to bring him down . Yes he's behind Billy V but it's a bit like saying Yoann Blake is slow as **** because he gets his arse whipped by Usain Bolt . Hughes is getting used to international rugby if you ask me and is going to be paramount to England in the next year when Billy V is away with the lions etc

And as for the question marks some people have over Watson playing full back I'll ask only one question do you watch the premiership ? It's where he plays every week ..... I'm a huge fan of Brown but sooner rather than later he needs to be replaced . He's no longer the force he was 3 years ago. Mike Haley could come in and is super talented but hasn't a single cap so for now Watson is in the drivers seat . I'd be over the moon with a Nowell/Daly/Watson back 3

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

On the Billy's light years better than Hughes stuff, its only in the last 18 months that he's become such a force. The beginning of his international career was stuttering with Morgan being our first choice going into the last RWC. Hughes is going through that same learning curve now. - he'll be fine. They can both wreak havoc with ball in hand and are probably best paired with flankers who are happy doing the close quarters dirty stuff. Possibly no coincidence that Billy looked so good alongside Robshaw and Hask. Hughes hasn't had that luxury yet.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

On the Billy's light years better than Hughes stuff, its only in the last 18 months that he's become such a force. The beginning of his international career was stuttering with Morgan being our first choice going into the last RWC. Hughes is going through that same learning curve now. - he'll be fine. They can both wreak havoc with ball in hand and are probably best paired with flankers who are happy doing the close quarters dirty stuff. Possibly no coincidence that Billy looked so good alongside Robshaw and Hask. Hughes hasn't had that luxury yet.

i think a lot of Vunipola growth was due to him naturally maturing considering that 18 months ago he was only 22.


I just think Hughes is a liability TBH, granted he hasn't had Hask or Robshaw around him (but Billy has performed without them before I blieve) and he hasn't exactly been up against an in form team yet really.

TBH I do really not like him due to a mix of his qualification and wasps fans one eyed views on him (which ironically makes this somewhat one eyed) BUT he has been poor and I don't think he has grown yet, and I'm not getting excited on this Scotland showing where I didn't think he was that good against a pretty crap Scotland team.

 

[Raggs]

I don't think you'll find any Wasps fan who thinks he's been fantastic. He hasn't been. But people are acting like he's been useless, lazy and ineffective, which is just not true.

He's not as good as BV. But that doesn't mean he's been playing badly. And having other good carriers around helps immensely, BV always looks so much better when his brother is playing, because he no longer is constantly targeted by 2-3 men in defence every time. That's true for Sarries and England.

You say he's a liability. How? He's had some daft penalties, but no more so than others. He's consistently created space for others since he's always targeted by 2 or 3 men. He gets over the gainline far more often than people are willing to admit, yes he's had some very noticeable failures to get over the gainline too, where he should have done better, but find me a player who doesn't make some bad plays during a game.

 

[martinspoonboy1]

I don't think you'll find any Wasps fan who thinks he's been fantastic. He hasn't been. But people are acting like he's been useless, lazy and ineffective, which is just not true.

He's not as good as BV. But that doesn't mean he's been playing badly. And having other good carriers around helps immensely, BV always looks so much better when his brother is playing, because he no longer is constantly targeted by 2-3 men in defence every time. That's true for Sarries and England.

You say he's a liability. How? He's had some daft penalties, but no more so than others. He's consistently created space for others since he's always targeted by 2 or 3 men. He gets over the gainline far more often than people are willing to admit, yes he's had some very noticeable failures to get over the gainline too, where he should have done better, but find me a player who doesn't make some bad plays during a game.

For me yesterday was his best game in an England shirt. Needs to cut out the stupid pens though as that will kill us against better opposition. I think he sometimes tries too hard and needs to take a spilt second longer to think about what he's doing. If the ruck is lost why risk going off your feet when you have a 10% chance of winning the ball and getting away with it. Play the percentages. Yes he's no billy but you can see slow and steady improvement and that's all you can ask of a player. Agreed that'll he'll be a finisher and probably a pretty effective one once opposition shoulders soften.