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[2017 RBS Six Nations] Round 4: England vs Scotland (12/03/2017)

Questions for Scotland: what was with the silly stuff all the time? Its no good squaring up to the English fowards all the time if you let them bash up in the contact area.

It almost felt like a tactic. Italy tried to unsettle England by using a loophole in the laws, Scots try to unsettle them the Scottish way, squaring up and looking for a fight. Didn't one of them attempt to headbutt Hartley at one point? I loved it when a Scot was getting in the face of an England player and Itoje just came up to him and started ruffling his hair :D
 
On the Billy's light years better than Hughes stuff, its only in the last 18 months that he's become such a force. The beginning of his international career was stuttering with Morgan being our first choice going into the last RWC. Hughes is going through that same learning curve now. - he'll be fine. They can both wreak havoc with ball in hand and are probably best paired with flankers who are happy doing the close quarters dirty stuff. Possibly no coincidence that Billy looked so good alongside Robshaw and Hask. Hughes hasn't had that luxury yet.
I think Hughes will be fine, maybe needs to put a tad more weight on to be more devastating runner like he was the other season. but for the Autumn internationals I think it's gonna be battle with Carl Fearns for who gets that 'Finishers' spot with Billy obviously starting.
The tour to Argentina is going to be interesting to see which back rowers step up with Billy, Haskell and hopefully Robshaw away with the Lions.
 
I think Hughes will be fine, maybe needs to put a tad more weight on to be more devastating runner like he was the other season. but for the Autumn internationals I think it's gonna be battle with Carl Fearns for who gets that 'Finishers' spot with Billy obviously starting.
The tour to Argentina is going to be interesting to see which back rowers step up with Billy, Haskell and hopefully Robshaw away with the Lions.

His workrate without that weight is so much greater than it was before, I'd rather he was slightly less effective per carry, but able to keep carrying for 80 minutes (and doing everything else). Also important for Wasps that he can keep up with their game.
 
i think a lot of Vunipola growth was due to him naturally maturing considering that 18 months ago he was only 22.


I just think Hughes is a liability TBH, granted he hasn't had Hask or Robshaw around him (but Billy has performed without them before I blieve) and he hasn't exactly been up against an in form team yet really.

TBH I do really not like him due to a mix of his qualification and wasps fans one eyed views on him (which ironically makes this somewhat one eyed) BUT he has been poor and I don't think he has grown yet, and I'm not getting excited on this Scotland showing where I didn't think he was that good against a pretty crap Scotland team.

Sorry, this is a load of nonsense. There were over the top criticisms here of Hughes way before there were any "one-eyed wasps fans" to defend him. As Raggs says no wasp fan here that I know of thinks Hughes has been amazing. He hasn't, he's had some nightmarishly bad starts to games, in fact it's taken him too long to grow into games, and overall Billy is just better. My defence of him has always been in response to the OTT criticism of every thing he does which absolutely came first, so honestly your position is quite circular. Despite Hughes' daft penalties, the likes of Itoje and Cole have given away just as many in the last game and nobody pays any intention or talks about how useless they are. A lot of players have been poor up until yesterday and yet a small number of names take the blame. Not going to get excited about this showing because Scotland were so poor? Except you seemed very pleased with the game Youngs had yesterday and the poor quality of the opposition didn't deter you there. And you can't bring qualification rules onto the pitch - that's just not fair. You've acknowledged yourself it's an arbitrary position. I agree the rules make it extremely easy to play for England but until that changes you can't just decide to be more suspicious of a guys performances on the basis that, effectively, he ain't from around here.
 
It almost felt like a tactic. Italy tried to unsettle England by using a loophole in the laws, Scots try to unsettle them the Scottish way, squaring up and looking for a fight. Didn't one of them attempt to headbutt Hartley at one point? I loved it when a Scot was getting in the face of an England player and Itoje just came up to him and started ruffling his hair :D

Itoje appears to have taken on the traditional Martin Johnson role of coming over to 'give some advice' as often as possible
 
Itoje appears to have taken on the traditional Martin Johnson role of coming over to 'give some advice' as often as possible

Yep, love it. Pleased that Jones has him - I could imagine Burt trying to coach that out of him
 
When it comes to tip tackles and taking people out in the air, there is very little difference in the physics. You take out the legs of someone in the air who's moving at pace, they'll spin. The higher the player and greater the speed, the more the player will spin. If you take a player out in the air whilst travelling at high speed, you'll spin them onto their head or close. There's no luck involved.

Should have been a red card not a yellow yesterday.

That looked much worse than Warbs red card in the WC , how he only got a yellow is beyond me, the laws have supposedly become much more harsh but that didn't show yesterday, that was a straight red if ever there was one, I know it was early in the match but so was warbs in the WC a red that basically cost us a place in the final. Refs need to be consistent across the board.
 
The problem with Hughes' penalties in the last game is they were all bloody stupid and brainless. Itoje 2 of the 3 were pretty understandable. That's why people don't talk about it, the circumstances of the penalty matters a lot.
 
Agreed, although the main circumstance that makes a difference is winning. When Hughes played badly against Italy (and he did play infuriatingly badly) the whole team just needed to get some ball, settle it and start handling properly. Instead they were poor and so Hughes' performance was all the more grating. It was the biggest symptom of what was going wrong.
 
That looked much worse than Warbs red card in the WC , how he only got a yellow is beyond me, the laws have supposedly become much more harsh but that didn't show yesterday, that was a straight red if ever there was one, I know it was early in the match but so was warbs in the WC a red that basically cost us a place in the final. Refs need to be consistent across the board.

Absolutely agree
Mike
 
He didn't play badly against Italy, he had a rough starting 20 minutes, he was one of our better forwards for the rest of that game.

ESPN have him listed for 4 penalties against Italy, what were they? There was a turnover attempt the ref said he was off his feet (fair call, he was on his elbows), a second was for not releasing when he stripped the player (thought that was potentially a bit harsh, certainly didn't think it stupid), what were the other two (when I watched it again I counted 3, missed the 4th).

One of Itojes was bloody stupid at least, taking the man in the air (in a very obvious manner), can't remember the other 2, but then I wasn't looking for them.

And giving away 3 (or more) penalties away is too many for any player, except potentially a prop, who can sometimes just get on the wrong side of the ref in the scrum (assuming they don't give away other stupid penalties, like Cole did against Italy).

Hughes gave no penalties away against Wales or France.
 
Itoje's taking the man out in the air at a line out was typical competing for the ball then accidentally wrapping round your opposite number. You see all good people at the line out do it now and then.

TBH with Hughes it was the penalties and knocks ons. He was pretty much the epitomy of everything going wrong that match.
 
Itoje's taking the man out in the air at a line out was typical competing for the ball then accidentally wrapping round your opposite number. You see all good people at the line out do it now and then.

TBH with Hughes it was the penalties and knocks ons. He was pretty much the epitomy of everything going wrong that match.

No. A typical contact in the air is when you get one arm inside your opponents, and it's tough to not yank their arm whilst competing. Itoje went up, completely wrapped Parisse up with one arm, and then brought the other around him as well whilst still in the air, also jumping well across the line and taking Parisse to ground when he lands. It was blatant, and stupid. Other players can be stupid at times, it's allowed, even for Itoje.
 
For me the difference is that Itoje has made mistakes, but then not made them again in the same game. Hughes gave away 2 penalities for putting his hands on the floor against Italy and both times it was obvious as hell and in his own half. For me that shows he's either not learning or not capable enough and should leave it to others.
 
For me the difference is that Itoje has made mistakes, but then not made them again in the same game. Hughes gave away 2 penalities for putting his hands on the floor against Italy and both times it was obvious as hell and in his own half. For me that shows he's either not learning or not capable enough and should leave it to others.

When did he do it the second time against Italy?

EDIT -

I remember elbows on the floor early on. Then there was a rip/turnover where he got done for not releasing (which as I said, I thought was harsh). Can't remember the other two penalties, and only found the 3rd when I was rewatching.
 
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Found it. First one was off feet at around 4m, 2nd was not releasing tackler (that some refs would have allowed I reckon at about 26m) and 3rd was elbows on the ground at 38m. Not going to chase after the 4th.
 
Hughes seems to be getting unnecessary stick that isn't warranted. He will never be a BillyV, but he is learning and gradually improving. Cutting out the penalties should come with experience one would hope, but Cole and Hartley are still giving them away.
 
I’m never sure if anyone actually reads these but I do them for my own amusement as much as anything, so here goes, a bit of back-play analysis - specifically the three tries England scored in the first half, all through JJ’s line breaks all off lineout ball thrown to the back of the line. In fact although my focus is the backs I cannot overstate the importance of quality lineout ball in creating the conditions for the backs to operate in; I’ll leave someone who knows more than me to speculate on the hows, whys and wherefores but the English pack created excellent quality quick ball for their backs, and crucially with the first line of Scottish defence in many cases already taken out the game.

England’s back play was brilliant, accurate and fast, and JJ’s individual skill the icing on the cake. But Scotland’s defence was also poor throughout all three, indecisive and disjointed. Jonny Wilkinson at half time on the ITV coverage nailed it when he said of the Scottish backs and their decisions in defence “they are now individually having to guess rather than playing a system†(FYI I owe a fair bit of what follows to JW’s analysis, definitely worth watching the half time show if you haven’t already - it also shows all three tries from the camera behind the posts, giving the best viewpoint of the defensive and attacking positioning and lines)

TRY 1

Having set a maul and sucked in forwards, England use Hughes passing from the maul to Youngs at first receiver to create an extra man.

Although the defence is well positioned, they are indecisive and there is no linespeed and they do not seem confident to move up together, instead hanging back and waiting to react to the attack. What is really disappointing from a Scottish point of view is that there wasn’t really any deception to this move, it was really just a case of giving the ball to JJ and seeing what he could do. His speed and skill combined with indecision and poor decision from the Scottish centres turned a first phase carry into a clean break, and then into a try.
Dunbar is far too slow out - once GF gives the ball he is still jogging, still trying to read the play. At the point JJ became the carrier he needed to go straight for him at full speed because he had ground to make up; instead he dithers and leaves a tiny opening and that is all JJ needs with his pace and feet.

Jones is also at fault, committing unnecessarily to Brown early when he should have still been watching JJ. There’s a lot of talk regarding defence about “trusting the systemâ€, the trouble is when the system doesn’ t work (i.e., Dunbar here) trusting it only makes the error worse. Basically, Jones did the right thing IF Dunbar could be trusted to make the tackle on JJ - but he couldn’t.

TRY 2

Watching this try back I was absolutely staggered to see that Scotland simply did not have a "tail gunner" at the lineout, i.e. a forward to come fast off the back of the lineout and make the first tackle on the first receiver. Whether accident or design I’m not sure but an incomprehensible error. In fact if you look no one is standing in the SH spot for Scotland - instead they appear to be lining up an extra man (Hamish Watson) in the backs.

Essentially, they are focusing their resources too wide and leaving an enormous hole next to the set piece, which England exploit easily with quite a neat trick: Youngs stands at the front of the line with Farrell at the SH spot, a soon as the ball is thrown to the back (taking out the Scottish forwards at the back of the lineout), both peel off and Youngs passes to Farrell running into the space where the Scotland SH isn’t. Essentially, the defensive alignment all down the line is now ****ed - everyone has to pull in one by one, and that will always cause a gap somewhere down the line. Ford and JJ isolate a defender, again a superb finish by JJ.

TRY 3

By now Scotland’s defence knows it is in crisis and is desperately trying to find a way to stop it. Finn Russell (who I have to say did not play like a man who responds positively to adversity … ) rushed up as fast as he could to cut out the space on Ford, which pulled the back line out of shape, because the tail gunner actually did have that man covered, and again everyone else in the defensive line is now pulled inwards, and the system once again is broken. Watson (again defending the 12 channel) bites in on Hughes’s dummy run (arguable whether he needed to in the circumstances - Hughes is heading back into the cover defence) leaving Dunbar once again isolated against Farrell and JJ. Again perfect pass timing and JJ’s speed and skill breaks the line, then a quality support line and another well timed pass put in Watson.

(NB worth noting that with 2 dummy runs and a pass from the maul the much-maligned Hughes had a key role in each of these first half tries)

Apologies for the long post - feel free to elaborate, disagree or ignore completely. Your call
 
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