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Your Lions Squad Following the 6N

Same could be said for a number of players some people feel should be left behind. From Ireland alone Best, Heaslip and Kearney.

Yeah I understand what you're saying. The difference imo is that Hook offers something few other players do in his versatility. If he only played 10, I wouldn't be suggesting he go, as there are better options, but as Gatland has specifically said that a utility player will likely go instead of a 3rd dedicated 10, then imo Hook fit's that bill best.

With regards to Best, Heaslip and Kearney, I wouldn't be adverse to all three touring tbh. Best's complete implosion at the lineout really worries me though, and is why I'd prefer Owens. I'd personally take Heaslip. If Morgan wasn't injured, I'd be tempted by him instead, but I'd probably still have chosen Heaslip, as I think he can return to form without the captaincy weighing down upon him. With Kearney, the problem is that Halfpenny and Hogg are in much better form, and offer a little more versatility with more experience of playing on the wing. I'd still be happy if Kearney goes though, possibly at the expense of a winger like Visser.
 
Yeah I understand what you're saying. The difference imo is that Hook offers something few other players do in his versatility. If he only played 10, I wouldn't be suggesting he go, as there are better options, but as Gatland has specifically said that a utility player will likely go instead of a 3rd dedicated 10, then imo Hook fit's that bill best.

With regards to Best, Heaslip and Kearney, I wouldn't be adverse to all three touring tbh. Best's complete implosion at the lineout really worries me though, and is why I'd prefer Owens. I'd personally take Heaslip. If Morgan wasn't injured, I'd be tempted by him instead, but I'd probably still have chosen Heaslip, as I think he can return to form without the captaincy weighing down upon him. With Kearney, the problem is that Halfpenny and Hogg are in much better form, and offer a little more versatility with more experience of playing on the wing. I'd still be happy if Kearney goes though, possibly at the expense of a winger like Visser.

Sorry didn't mean to suggest those three as ones you wouldn't take. Meant mor in general. I get what you're saying about Hook and he did well on the last one but I probably wouldnt bring him. More because I hven't seen enough of him to bring him than anything else. As an aside I'm pretty sure Kearney has a lot more experience on the wing than Hogg. Can't remember him playing there but Kearney was capped there early on.
 
Hooks never really figured in Gatlands plans though has he?

He was an important part of the 2008 grand slam, playing an equal role at 10 to Stephen Jones. He was then a staple in the centre during for a couple of years, and afterwards Gatland tried to shoe-horn him in at fullback.

At the same time, I think Gats prefers a steadier influence at 10 to start.

Hook has still normally been involved in most of Gatland's matchday squads. He wouldn't have reached 70 caps by the age of 27 if he wasn't part of Gatland's plans, but I do kind of see what you're saying.

Sorry didn't mean to suggest those three as ones you wouldn't take. Meant mor in general. I get what you're saying about Hook and he did well on the last one but I probably wouldnt bring him. More because I hven't seen enough of him to bring him than anything else. As an aside I'm pretty sure Kearney has a lot more experience on the wing than Hogg. Can't remember him playing there but Kearney was capped there early on.

No worries, although I have been quite vocal about Bests' poor form :p.

Fair enough on the Kearney v Hogg front. I'd still say Hogg's pace and skill better suit the wing. Never thought of Kearney as someone who would suit the wing. I'd say he'd be a little like Brown on the wing, a little lacking on the creative side.
 
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Been honest I think Hook would be overlooked as if that type of "role" was required then it'd be Farrell with Flood or Biggar as an extra. As for experienced guy I think Best Heaslip Kearney as stated from Ireland add in Ross and for laugh to heat a few ill say ROG and Earlsy are loosing out despite experience
 
Hsvn't seen Hook so I can't judge, I'm sure Gatland has it's his job so if's hes happy with him then I wouldn't be to bothered as he fits the bill.
 
Armatige just isn't an international 7. I'd rather have Tipuric or warbuton. I know he plays well for toulon but he plays really wide and isn't the amazing player everyone thinks, just because sky say he is amazing doesn't mean he is a good international option. I just don't think he is up to international rugby.
 
Armatige just isn't an international 7. I'd rather have Tipuric or warbuton. I know he plays well for toulon but he plays really wide and isn't the amazing player everyone thinks, just because sky say he is amazing doesn't mean he is a good international option. I just don't think he is up to international rugby.


Probably right...he was only the player of the year in the top 14 last year...
 
Considering Armitage played well in an England shirt before, and has improved consistently season on season since then, I find it hard to believe he couldn't play internationally.
 
Considering Armitage played well in an England shirt before, and has improved consistently season on season since then, I find it hard to believe he couldn't play internationally.

I think he could be a very good international 7. Does that mean he should go on this Lions tour? No, not imo. Backrow is one of our strongest positions and a number of the candidates have a lot of experience playing at 7 (Warbs, Tips, Robshaw, SOB and Wood).

There's a bigger step-up to international level than some believe as well imo. I think there's a bigger step-up in intensity between HC and international than there is between Domestic and HC. This may not be true all of the time, but in the big games there is. No club game has ever been close to the physicality, intensity and speed of the Wales v England game.
 
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Yeah I understand what you're saying. The difference imo is that Hook offers something few other players do in his versatility. If he only played 10, I wouldn't be suggesting he go, as there are better options, but as Gatland has specifically said that a utility player will likely go instead of a 3rd dedicated 10, then imo Hook fit's that bill best.

With regards to Best, Heaslip and Kearney, I wouldn't be adverse to all three touring tbh. Best's complete implosion at the lineout really worries me though, and is why I'd prefer Owens. I'd personally take Heaslip. If Morgan wasn't injured, I'd be tempted by him instead, but I'd probably still have chosen Heaslip, as I think he can return to form without the captaincy weighing down upon him. With Kearney, the problem is that Halfpenny and Hogg are in much better form, and offer a little more versatility with more experience of playing on the wing. I'd still be happy if Kearney goes though, possibly at the expense of a winger like Visser.

Do you have a link to where he said this?

I personally think Hook's usefulness for versatility is overrated. He is a very average full back and I don't want to see him play there as he isn't of much use there, he is just a fly half or centre in my opinion which makes him no more versatile than Farrell or some other fly half options. I bet Farrell could be as good a full back as Hook is too as well. Also Hook's bench cameos in the 6 Nations were awful, his "impact" was normally to throw over ambitious crap passes and lose possession such as this.

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If you really want a versatile player who plays all of fly half, centre and full back to high quality, your best bet would be Henson.

Hooks never really figured in Gatlands plans though has he?

70 caps and was a key player in the 2008 Grand Slam. Hardly "never figured", even if he has been a mere benchwarmer for the last couple of seasons.

I think he could be a very good international 7. Does that mean he should go on this Lions tour? No, not imo. Backrow is one of our strongest positions and a number of the candidates have a lot of experience playing at 7 (Warbs, Tips, Robshaw, SOB and Wood).

There's a bigger step-up to international level than some believe as well imo. I think there's a bigger step-up in intensity between HC and international than there is between Domestic and HC. This may not be true all of the time, but in the big games there is. No club game has ever been close to the physicality, intensity and speed of the Wales v England game.

Disagreed. Leinster v Clermont last season was just as physical and intense and certainly as quick. And to be honest the skills and creativity in that match trumped both Wales and England. To say that doesn't come close is crazy. The Ospreys v Leinster Pro12 final was pretty intense as well.

The top domestic teams in Europe are pretty much international.
 
Do you have a link to where he said this?

I personally think Hook's usefulness for versatility is overrated. He is a very average full back and I don't want to see him play there as he isn't of much use there, he is just a fly half or centre in my opinion which makes him no more versatile than Farrell or some other fly half options. I bet Farrell could be as good a full back as Hook is too as well. Also Hook's bench cameos in the 6 Nations were awful, his "impact" was normally to throw over ambitious crap passes and lose possession such as this.

If you really want a versatile player who plays all of fly half, centre and full back to high quality, your best bet would be Henson.
You can see Gatland calling for 2 fly-halves in the 25 min interview posted a couple of pages back.

Although he's been picked there regularly for club, Farrell is barely club-quality at 12 or 13, and certainly not international quality. Farrell has to be kept at 10. If pushed, Sexton at 12 is a better idea than Farrell. Hook, imo, is as good a center (or even better) than he is a fly-half.

Depends whether he wants a guy who can play 10 for a midweek game or two if needs be, or whether he wants another competitor for the 10 shirt. My guess is the former, which Twelvetrees could do.
Twelvetrees is not a Lion on current form (since being picked up by England, frustratingly). And he's almost certainly not an international 10. Even when in good form at 12, he's had a couple of clangers at 10 for Gloucester. I can see now why he was so frustrated by Cockerill wanting to play him so much at 10.
 
I honestly think that the 10's will be Sexton, Farrell and Madigan after what Gatland has said. He's played 12 at international level and has played 10 and 15 at HEC level and is currently one of the most talked about players in Ireland and Sky have picked him up trying to turn him into a star. I don't know if many will agree with it but they're the signs I'm reading.

I'd also certainly have him ahead of Twelvetrees and Hook.
 
No offense but Madigan hasn't played 12 for Ireland properly. He came in when there was a free for all in Italy and France and them cameo roles (while he looked fine) will have 0% input on outcome. But if your saying Madigan a International standard 12 then that is wrong, maybe he will go but Irish time will be irrelevant and Gatland knows that.
 
No offense but Madigan hasn't played 12 for Ireland properly. He came in when there was a free for all in Italy and France and them cameo roles (while he looked fine) will have 0% input on outcome. But if your saying Madigan a International standard 12 then that is wrong, maybe he will go but Irish time will be irrelevant and Gatland knows that.

He was Ireland's only player who performed vs Italy at 12. I agree with what you've said but playing 12 vs Melbourne Rebels' B team etc... doesn't mean you had to be international standard.
 
Do you have a link to where he said this?

In the 25min interview posted by ratsapprentice previously on this threa. Post #472. Gatland is specifically asked about how many 10's will go and he replies that most likely 2 along with a utility back to cover.

I personally think Hook's usefulness for versatility is overrated. He is a very average full back and I don't want to see him play there as he isn't of much use there, he is just a fly half or centre in my opinion which makes him no more versatile than Farrell or some other fly half options. I bet Farrell could be as good a full back as Hook is too as well. Also Hook's bench cameos in the 6 Nations were awful, his "impact" was normally to throw over ambitious crap passes and lose possession such as this.

I agree that his 6 nations cameo's were pretty poor. However I don't think he's become a poor player overnight.

I also wouldn't start him at 15, but you can't cover every position from the bench, and thus someone with international experience at 4 positions could come in extremely useful if a couple of injuries are picked up during a match. I'd prefer to see Hook coming on at fullback than shoehorning someone like Sexton or Farrell there if a couple of outside backs are forced off during the game. Not saying that Sexton or Farrell couldn't do the job, but they are untested. Hook, even if he hasn't been a world beater at 15, has been more than adequate, and would do the job if required.

Disagreed. Leinster v Clermont last season was just as physical and intense and certainly as quick. And to be honest the skills and creativity in that match trumped both Wales and England. To say that doesn't come close is crazy. The Ospreys v Leinster Pro12 final was pretty intense as well.

The top domestic teams in Europe are pretty much international.

I still don't think the quality is comparable. The Wales team would obliterate all the Welsh regions, including the Ospreys. Even though the calibre of player is comparable, the intensity they play with isn't. Players simply couldn't cope with playing at international intensity throughout the season, highlighted by how much work is done at international level to raise the fitness and conditioning levels before big tournaments.

Leinster v Clermont was a great domestic game, but still didn't reach the level of the top international games. Pretty much every player comments on how much quicker international rugby is than domestic after their first cap, and this is why some players struggle to make the transition. Even one of Leinsters big game players, Sexton struggled with the transition and needed time to adjust. Biggar is another who struggled, as have numerous others in the past.

He was Ireland's only player who performed vs Italy at 12. I agree with what you've said but playing 12 vs Melbourne Rebels' B team etc... doesn't mean you had to be international standard.

No player should be going with just the view of playing against Melbourne Rebels B team. If one of Farrell or Sexton got injured (your other two 10's), then he's be on the bench in the main tests, and that could require covering in the centre with a test series on the line. Madigan's barely played for Ireland yet, and is second choice at his province, too early for the Lions imo.
 
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Leinster v Clermont was a great domestic game, but still didn't reach the level of the top international games. Pretty much every player comments on how much quicker international rugby is than domestic after their first cap, and this is why some players struggle to make the transition. Even one of Leinsters big game players, Sexton struggled with the transition and needed time to adjust. Biggar is another who struggled, as have numerous others in the past.

Nathan Hines a Lion said the Leinster Toulouse semi from 2011 was the hardest match he ever played in.
 
No player should be going with just the view of playing against Melbourne Rebels B team. If one of Farrell or Sexton got injured (your other two 10's), then he's be on the bench in the main tests, and that could require covering in the centre with a test series on the line. Madigan's barely played for Ireland yet, and is second choice at his province, too early for the Lions imo.

That's not really what I meant. I don't think it's too early at all considering Halfpenny and Earls were on the last tour. Madigan has some of the best kicking %'s in Europe and is very very good on the ball. I think he brings a lot to the game and he may not be able to cover 12, that's not a certainty, but he can cover fullback and has done at HEC level so a centre/winger could be put on the bench.

I would not be worried at all if Madigan toured, I'm not sure whether I'd bring him but who cares he's good enough and confident enough.
 
1 player I hope doesn't tour is Sean O'Brien. Having spoken to a Leinster counterpart and seen him in flesh he's still not same player he was before his operation and a tour like this could really KO his body
 
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