Your Lions Squad Following the 6N

[psychic duck]

Yup, and I know the Leicester lineout and scrum were good in that match. I still think Youngs has some developing to do, mainly to improve his consistency.

I think it's becoming obvious that rating hookers is a very subjective thing. I thought that Best was very average in the 6 nations, other than the game against Wales where he was great. But the stats suggest that he was decent. The stats don't back-up Hibbard and Owens' performances which I thought were excellent throughout.

I do think that the way Hibbard plays make his stats appear average. As j'nuh says, he carries close in to the ruck where going is tough, whearas Best, Owens and Youngs are often found wider out in midfield where there's more space. Nothing wrong with either, so long as there's balance in the side. But it does make comparing stats very misleading.

The stats on ESPN once again are questionable. In the Wales v England game, Owens has 0 turnovers, be we all know that isn't the case, whether it was legal or illegal. I suppose ultimately the England player lost control of the ball, but to me that was still a turnover to Owens (again rightly or wrongly).

Find the "lineouts lost" stat. That should back up that Best was poor in the 6 Nations. Also regarding Hibbard, find the "scrum penalties won" stat, he had a big part to play there as a renowned scrummaging hooker of course famously did that crunching hit vs England which lifted the Welsh team.

dullonien, regarding the Scrum.com stats. The figure for turnovers is actually turnovers conceded, so that is amount of times they dropped the ball, got tackled into touch, or got turned over in the tackle rather than turnovers won. So 0 is actually a better figure on their stats than a higher one, unfortunately they don't make it clear on there though. But for example, in the game where Lauaki infamously dropped the ball a gazillion times, the turnover stat show this (http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/25707.html).

 

[dullonien]

dullonien, regarding the Scrum.com stats. The figure for turnovers is actually turnovers conceded, so that is amount of times they dropped the ball, got tackled into touch, or got turned over in the tackle rather than turnovers won. So 0 is actually a better figure on their stats than a higher one, unfortunately they don't make it clear on there though. But for example, in the game where Lauaki infamously dropped the ball a gazillion times, the turnover stat show this (http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/25707.html).

Aaahh, oops.

 

[munstermuffin]

Just regard Robshaw having had a think about it and I going to get slaughtered badly but was England winning paper over the cracks in some ways like and they are a bit overrated?

New Zealand - Lets face it they were shattered from 4Nations and had virus
Scotland - Are a poor team who improved
Ireland - We were (still are) at an all time low and they couldn't score a try against us and won closely
France - Were useless and England just got past them at home
Italy - Are improving and in some peoples eyes deserved to take something out of that game
Wales - Found form and destroyed England.

Like was England partly fortunate that alot of other teams have major problems

 

[Peat]

That said - testrugby.com does give turnover stats for turnovers made - and they don't list Owens either. Which is crazy nuts. I assume they work on the basis it's only a turnover if the guy ends up carrying the ball. They give lower tackle counts for everyone too, don't think they count second tacklers which means Irish tackle counts drop dramatically on it. Stats are never totally reliable, and I try not to base my entire argument on them, but in this case the stats back up what I saw so much I've ended up overusing them.

Best was ok to good with one great match before the Italy debacle. Ireland's lineout success stat was 83.8pc or so before that match, slightly above Wales and England (83pc and 82pc). He was his usual self more or less in the loose, but without the spark, and obviously no one should really be celebrating a lineout success rate that low (although it's higher that what Strauss achieved in the Autumn throwing at the same targets). Obviously it drops lower overall by the end, although I never bothered to work it out.

I didn't mean to go after Hibbard per se - except on that tackle count - more to show Best was comparing ok in the loose. Yeah, true enough Hibbard does a lot of that close in stuff where you're never going to get much, although I don't think all his carries were of that nature. Even with that taken into account, the stats reinforce the picture I already have - a guy doing the job well enough, but not a shining light. Just don't think he was hugely better than Best if any until the last round. Obviously at the moment I'd start him, I'm just illustrating 1) Oh dear, we have a minor problem 2) Providing what I see as the right nuance to the picture of Best's form. The total collapse was very recent. The malaise, if we're honest, has been going on a fair bit longer than the 6N.

 

[munstermuffin]

In fairness to Best he has improved his darts but is still not top standard with them but in 6 Nations he hadn't a great team to work with Ryan wasn't 100% and he grabbed alot. The Irish back row did their share of jumping but when you compare that to targets like POC, Jones, even Bonnaire for France the difference it makes is huge

 

[dullonien]

Best was ok to good with one great match before the Italy debacle. Ireland's lineout success stat was 83.8pc or so before that match, slightly above Wales and England (83pc and 82pc). He was his usual self more or less in the loose, but without the spark, and obviously no one should really be celebrating a lineout success rate that low (although it's higher that what Strauss achieved in the Autumn throwing at the same targets). Obviously it drops lower overall by the end, although I never bothered to work it out.

Again, I'm unsure which stats to believe. I was under the impression that going into the final weekend Wales' lineout success was at 85%, better than both Ireland and England.

 

[Peat]

Again, I'm unsure which stats to believe. I was under the impression that going into the final weekend Wales' lineout success was at 85%, better than both Ireland and England.

Ireland's lineout stats I worked out from ESPN. The 83/82 for Wales/England was something the Beeb said very early on in that match.

And, of course, these are overall stats; I don't know which of Hibbard and Owens was dragging the other down, but I bet stats for just Best read better than for Best and Cronin, while there was at one point a very stark difference between Youngs' and Hartley's stats... shall we just agree to say it's all been a little mediocre on the lineout front and leave it there, rather going on over the fine details for which we have insufficiently trustworthy data?

The only thing I'd add further to that is that balancing the lack of choice there with a raft of top class lineout jumpers seems a very obvious call to make.

 

[munstermuffin]

Lads whatever the true stats are I'm sure ESPN are probably wrong they have a history of it.

And Peat Cronin will always bring stats down so you probably correct. But stats sometimes don't tell all story as a lineout may be won but the manner it won (a lucky catch or over throw that is just saved) has to be looked at.

 

[munstermuffin]

Lads whatever the true stats are I'm sure ESPN are probably wrong they have a history of it.

And Peat Cronin will always bring stats down so you probably correct. But stats sometimes don't tell all story as a lineout may be won but the manner it won (a lucky catch or over throw that is just saved) has to be looked at.

Just while we on it too - did I read Italy had best lineout of 6Nations somewhere or was I dreaming

 

[lynam1104]

I never thought debating hookers could be so boring...

 

[big ginger 8]

In fairness to Best he only had one jumper who was even 6'6" and Ryan called a lot of ball on himself it was very predictable and put a lot of pressure on Best.

EDIT: Some majority http://www.rugby.com.au/News/NewsArticle/tabid/1699/ArticleID/8745/Default.aspx

 

[ratsapprentice]

http://www1.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/rugby-union/8632178/warren-gatland-extended-interview

Interdasting.

 

[lynam1104]

http://www1.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/rugby-union/8632178/warren-gatland-extended-interview

Interdasting.

Very interesting, from what I can tell hes probably looking to take Tom Wood as an option at 8 and is unimpressed with the other options. Wade has a shot but has to prove it in the next few weeks. POC will go if hes fit effectively.c Two 10's probably Sexton and Farrel with one utility wonder if he means Hook or Laidlaw? Finally hes bad at interviews.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I hope both Laidlaw and Hook go.
Laidlaw is our best option at 9, and Hook is probably our best option at 12.
When you look at the other 12s in contention he's the only way our outside backs will see any ball!

 

[lynam1104]

Anyone think that D'Arcy has any chance at all? Considering the complete lack of options who can 1) Pass 2) Run other then straight lines. Hes actually not been that bad, still not really Lions quality though.

 

[McTallshort]

Just regard Robshaw having had a think about it and I going to get slaughtered badly but was England winning paper over the cracks in some ways like and they are a bit overrated?

New Zealand - Lets face it they were shattered from 4Nations and had virus
Scotland - Are a poor team who improved
Ireland - We were (still are) at an all time low and they couldn't score a try against us and won closely
France - Were useless and England just got past them at home
Italy - Are improving and in some peoples eyes deserved to take something out of that game
Wales - Found form and destroyed England.

Like was England partly fortunate that alot of other teams have major problems

Are we talking about England or Robshaw?

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Anyone think that D'Arcy has any chance at all? Considering the complete lack of options who can 1) Pass 2) Run other then straight lines. Hes actually not been that bad, still not really Lions quality though.

I'd have him ahead of Hook anyway, Scott and Roberts would be my 12's though.

 

[big ginger 8]

I'd have him ahead of Hook anyway, Scott and Roberts would be my 12's though.

I'm delighted with D'arcy's form since after 2012 6n really brought it up. Actually wouldn't mind him going wouldn't pick him but he'd be on injury cover. Probably needed the 6n to convince non Irish.

 

[lynam1104]

Forgot about Scott actually, hes probably ahead looked good in the 6N.

 

[dasNdanger]

I spent ages coming up with that Muppet XV only for people to get back on topic, like that's the point in the forum. Typical.

I thought it was going to be about hair...

But then...

He's got some ****ing good hair; Draggs approved.
It's no Czekaj though...

He's done a damn fine job as captain for the Ospreys, certainly been an inspiration for them - especially recently when he returned from injury.


Also, come on guys...we all know Gavin Evans wins best hairstyle.

That Gavin Evans one is pretty classy.
The England squad seems to be doing the recent nothing-on-sides look.

Do I sense a Hair XV coming up? Dunc, Hibbard, and Adam up front.

All the flash European footballers seem to have it too, maybe they got it from them? I'm a fan of it, hairdressers never seem to get it right on me though

Yeah, with a good head shape it can look solid. Transitioning from my winter 'Gavin Evans-esque' to one of those. Not warm enough for 'no sides' yet.

On the topic of hair, I demand Froby regrows his fro.

Andrea "locks" himself into the #17 shirt in the hair squad.....

Surely sexist would fit better, eh, eh.......

I remember saying to my friend "I can't wait for Mulipola and Castro to come on, hairiest pair of props ever... *pause* outside Swansea".

Sometimes guys just need to let off a little steam. So, here...lemme help...



Now, if anyone feels a need to grab a hair brush, or take a cold shower...you're welcome.

Also, he'd make a great winger for the Lions. (See? Even I can stay on topic. )


das