Your Lions Squad Following the 6N

[LittleGuy]

That Gavin Evans one is pretty classy.
The England squad seems to be doing the recent nothing-on-sides look.

Do I sense a Hair XV coming up? Dunc, Hibbard, and Adam up front.

Andrea "locks" himself into the #17 shirt in the hair squad.....

 

[Big Ewis]

Andrea "locks" himself into the #17 shirt in the hair squad.....

 

[ZeFrenchy]

Biggs and Szarszewski are the standouts though. Hard struggle to be the hooker with best hair, who would have thought...

 

[big ginger 8]

Why is Best being touted by anyone for captain? He's completely imploded over the last few months. I wouldn't have him touring, with Hibbard, Youngs, Owens and possibly Ford ahead of him. If I didn't dislike Hartley so much, I'd maybe put him ahead of him too, but I refuse to acknowledge anything good about Hartley!

I presume because he's captain ed Ulster and Ireland in the past quite well. I wouldn't go near putting money on him myself but probably a strong contingent of Ulster fans are putting money on him if his odds are so low.

Think you're assessment is pretty harsh. Yeah his throwing has been very poor a lot has been in less than ideal lineouts but I'm not sure how much that actually excuses. Anyway a number of the hookers you have there ahead of him are not exactly renowned for their own throwing in any good way. Also he is someone who'd be very good to have in the squad and I cannot see Wales' second choice hooker touring. Be a bit further down the list for me anyway.

 

[dullonien]

I presume because he's captain ed Ulster and Ireland in the past quite well. I wouldn't go near putting money on him myself but probably a strong contingent of Ulster fans are putting money on him if his odds are so low.

Think you're assessment is pretty harsh. Yeah his throwing has been very poor a lot has been in less than ideal lineouts but I'm not sure how much that actually excuses. Anyway a number of the hookers you have there ahead of him are not exactly renowned for their own throwing in any good way. Also he is someone who'd be very good to have in the squad and I cannot see Wales' second choice hooker touring. Be a bit further down the list for me anyway.

All have issues with their throwing, but none have been as poor as Best recently. I personally think Owens is right in the reckoning He may be second choice at the moment, but his impact has been absolutely immense in every game, and is possibly unlucky to be behind the best performing hooker in Britain and Ireland atm. He's possibly the most well rounded hooker available, as his throwing is more reliable than Hibbard's and Youngs'. I can't believe the Scarlets started Rees over him against the Dragons, but Owens came on and changed that game in the second half. He was everywhere, just as he has been every time he's entered the fray for Wales. Probably in the form of his career atm.

Second choices have toured in the past, such as Cooper in '05.

 

[munstermuffin]

Not being biased towards Munster but I really think Best will be under pressure from Strauss and Sherry especially for Irish shirt and think his recent form has damaged his test prospects but I still expect him to tour.

Question I ask is anyone of actual captain contenders guaranteed spot like POC and AWJ aren't, Best and Robshaw are realistically battling for spots on plane and BOD condition will be microscopes but he has competition fromTuilagi who is finding form. My question is has anyone considered Sexton as a possibility.
In my eyes he's guaranteed spot, a superb talker and has captaincy attributes.
But I think it has to be said Gatland is known to prefer a forward as captain

 

[SelimNiai]

I've lost count the amount of times I've thought that Best will be going on the tour then the next time I see him play he has a bad game. It's frustrating.

 

[dullonien]

I'd prefer someone who has had a decent amount of experience being either a club/regional/provincial captain, or captained at international level. So I wouldn't consider Sexton.

 

[Draggs]

I'd prefer someone who has had a decent amount of experience being either a club/regional/provincial captain, or captained at international level. So I wouldn't consider Sexton.

Racist.

Or something.

 

[lynam1104]

I see Sexton as leader but not captain, hes a leader because of his position you can't do well in 10 without being someone who players respect and go with their calls. I can't think of many top level 10's who don't take charge in some way and talk a lot.

Frankly I have no idea who the captain will be everythings gotten a bit messy I'd be fine with any of:

BOD
POC
Robshaw
AWJ

There are others who you could put there and the obvious problem of who will be in the test team. These 4 are people who I think have shown their best when captain. It's a real Headache for Gats.

 

[dullonien]

Racist.

Or something.

Surely sexist would fit better, eh, eh.......

 

[Peat]

That Gavin Evans one is pretty classy.
The England squad seems to be doing the recent nothing-on-sides look.

Do I sense a Hair XV coming up? Dunc, Hibbard, and Adam up front.

I remember saying to my friend "I can't wait for Mulipola and Castro to come on, hairiest pair of props ever... *pause* outside Swansea".

All have issues with their throwing, but none have been as poor as Best recently. I personally think Owens is right in the reckoning He may be second choice at the moment, but his impact has been absolutely immense in every game, and is possibly unlucky to be behind the best performing hooker in Britain and Ireland atm. He's possibly the most well rounded hooker available, as his throwing is more reliable than Hibbard's and Youngs'. I can't believe the Scarlets started Rees over him against the Dragons, but Owens came on and changed that game in the second half. He was everywhere, just as he has been every time he's entered the fray for Wales. Probably in the form of his career atm.

Second choices have toured in the past, such as Cooper in '05.

No real argument that Best's form has absolutely imploded. I could make an argument for him based on the 6N, I could make a pretty serious case for him being starting hooker actually, but against Italy and then Saracens it's been hold your head stuff. Will he tour? Honestly don't know now, but I'm seriously worried about the number 2 jersey now. Fingers crossed he can mount a sudden rally, for more than Ulster's sake.

On Owens - I hate to be that person - but if he can't get past Rees, how can he go on the Lions? Rees hasn't been much cop for a while now. I normally hate that argument, it's stupid, but partly I haven't seen that much of Owens recently and therefore am uncertain as to what he brings (honestly didn't really notice him much in the 6N) and partly, for the Lions, for what should be the pinnacle, I really struggle to see how you place your faith in someone who can't even point at excellence starting domestically. Coming on as a sub is a different kettle of fish, and there are questions I want answered about Lions candidates that I feel only happen when starting.

 

[dullonien]

On Owens - I hate to be that person - but if he can't get past Rees, how can he go on the Lions? Rees hasn't been much cop for a while now. I normally hate that argument, it's stupid, but partly I haven't seen that much of Owens recently and therefore am uncertain as to what he brings (honestly didn't really notice him much in the 6N) and partly, for the Lions, for what should be the pinnacle, I really struggle to see how you place your faith in someone who can't even point at excellence starting domestically. Coming on as a sub is a different kettle of fish, and there are questions I want answered about Lions candidates that I feel only happen when starting.

To be fair, Owens has been the Scarlets first choice hooker for most of the season. He has overtaken Rees for them, but Rees was chosen to start against the Dragons, rotation I suppose.

Not sure how you didn't notice him during the 6 nations, he had massive impacts in every game, racking up double digit tackle counts, turnovers, and big carries. I personally think he's pushing Hibbard very hard for the Welsh starting berth, but Hibbard is doing nothing wrong himself.

 

[Peat]

To be fair, Owens has been the Scarlets first choice hooker for most of the season. He has overtaken Rees for them, but Rees was chosen to start against the Dragons, rotation I suppose.

Not sure how you didn't notice him during the 6 nations, he had massive impacts in every game, racking up double digit tackle counts, turnovers, and big carries. I personally think he's pushing Hibbard very hard for the Welsh starting berth, but Hibbard is doing nothing wrong himself.

Fair enough on the first count.

On the second though, I just didn't see it. Partially even my all-seeing gaze misses things, partially... I think you're overstating it. No set of statistics gives him a tackle count better than 19 overall - indeed, one of the arguments for Best is he made more tackles than both Welsh hookers put together. Obviously stats are unreliable, particularly ones on turnovers, but the only thing they really show him doing particularly well is carrying. Where he wasn't anything out of the ordinary compared to the other hookers. Maybe they're wrong and maybe I missed it, maybe not.

Mindyou, on reflection over the course of the games, I didn't think Hibbard was amazing either. Looked reasonable on the carry but not amazing, throwing ok but not great... he wins acclaim simply for being a B&I hooker who manages to do most of the fundamentals with a few genuine good points; that is how low our expectations have gone.

I guess, on reflection, I wouldn't complain if Owens went on the Lions tour. He seems to his fundamentals well. But the idea that we're genuinely entertaining Wales' second-choice hooker - started it at third iirc - when he hasn't even ripped it up domestically in the HEC (correct me if wrong, just hadn't noticed anyone going wow about it) says a huge amount about the standard of the position in these islands, and all of its crap.

Am I going too far there?

 

[Feicarsinn]

Stick Sean O'Brien there. Give him an intense 10 week course in how to throw a ball. Job done.

 

[dullonien]

Fair enough on the first count.

On the second though, I just didn't see it. Partially even my all-seeing gaze misses things, partially... I think you're overstating it. No set of statistics gives him a tackle count better than 19 overall - indeed, one of the arguments for Best is he made more tackles than both Welsh hookers put together. Obviously stats are unreliable, particularly ones on turnovers, but the only thing they really show him doing particularly well is carrying. Where he wasn't anything out of the ordinary compared to the other hookers. Maybe they're wrong and maybe I missed it, maybe not.

Mindyou, on reflection over the course of the games, I didn't think Hibbard was amazing either. Looked reasonable on the carry but not amazing, throwing ok but not great... he wins acclaim simply for being a B&I hooker who manages to do most of the fundamentals with a few genuine good points; that is how low our expectations have gone.

I guess, on reflection, I wouldn't complain if Owens went on the Lions tour. He seems to his fundamentals well. But the idea that we're genuinely entertaining Wales' second-choice hooker - started it at third iirc - when he hasn't even ripped it up domestically in the HEC (correct me if wrong, just hadn't noticed anyone going wow about it) says a huge amount about the standard of the position in these islands, and all of its crap.

Am I going too far there?

Stats are obviously misleading. Ireland had to put in twice as many tackles in that game, so Ireland's players would obviously have higher tackle counts.

The thing about Hibbard is that he offers so much power to the scrum, in defence and in carrying. He didn't carry as well in the 6 nations as he does for the O's, but he was still effective at close quarters. His lineout throwing has always been iffy, but that's almost an issue across the board with hookers atm (a few aside).

I think Owens only really hit his stride this season during the 6 nations. You should try to check out the impact he had on the Scarlets v Dragons game, his carrying was immense, and he put in North for his second try. Quality of the opposition is obviously questionable, but the Dragons were more competitive in that match than they have been of late.

As for the standard, I agree that it's not all that great. We've yet to see the best of Hibbard at international level, but he still has his flaws. Best's form has capitulated. Youngs is excellent in the loose, but I question his work in the lineout and scrums. Owens is good in the loose and in the lineout, but his scrummaging is not as good as some. Heartley's discipline is poor and I question his scrummaging technique. Ford is a bit meh imo. Rees is past it.

 

[Peat]

Stats are obviously misleading. Ireland had to put in twice as many tackles in that game, so Ireland's players would obviously have higher tackle counts.

The thing about Hibbard is that he offers so much power to the scrum, in defence and in carrying. He didn't carry as well in the 6 nations as he does for the O's, but he was still effective at close quarters. His lineout throwing has always been iffy, but that's almost an issue across the board with hookers atm (a few aside).

I think Owens only really hit his stride this season during the 6 nations. You should try to check out the impact he had on the Scarlets v Dragons game, his carrying was immense, and he put in North for his second try. Quality of the opposition is obviously questionable, but the Dragons were more competitive in that match than they have been of late.

As for the standard, I agree that it's not all that great. We've yet to see the best of Hibbard at international level, but he still has his flaws. Best's form has capitulated. Youngs is excellent in the loose, but I question his work in the lineout and scrums. Owens is good in the loose and in the lineout, but his scrummaging is not as good as some. Heartley's discipline is poor and I question his scrummaging technique. Ford is a bit meh imo. Rees is past it.

That's for the entire Six Nations. Best 41, Owens 19, Hibbard 18 - add in Matthew Rees and they finally beat him, as he got 5. Ok, yes Best got a lot of pitch time, but that's still a huge tackle count for a guy playing in the front row and going pretty much the entire match. No blame attached to Owens, but you'd have thought Hibbard could have managed more. Better metres per carry return than either Owens or Hibbard too; neither cracked more than a metre a carry, which Best did. In fact, until the last game against Italy where Best went absolutely to the rails, he was arguably the best hooker of the competition behind Ghiraldini - very busy in defence, good at the breakdown, useful auxiliary carrier. The Irish line-out did have some howlers, but it was statistically better than either England's or Wales' at that point. Of course, Best shat the bed there, had a decent game against Leinster to raise my hopes, then promptly laid a number 2 on the pillow against Sarries (although our problems seem to go deeper than him). But the total collapse is very recent. Most of the tournament he was a decent international hooker.

And yeah, I like Hibbard's power, but it's not unique, and it's not standout as internationals go imo. Better him than Hartley, better someone else again... anyway, I'll try to have a look at that Scarlets game some point.

 

[j'nuh]

That's for the entire Six Nations. Best 41, Owens 19, Hibbard 18 - add in Matthew Rees and they finally beat him, as he got 5. Ok, yes Best got a lot of pitch time, but that's still a huge tackle count for a guy playing in the front row and going pretty much the entire match. No blame attached to Owens, but you'd have thought Hibbard could have managed more. Better metres per carry return than either Owens or Hibbard too; neither cracked more than a metre a carry, which Best did. In fact, until the last game against Italy where Best went absolutely to the rails, he was arguably the best hooker of the competition behind Ghiraldini - very busy in defence, good at the breakdown, useful auxiliary carrier. The Irish line-out did have some howlers, but it was statistically better than either England's or Wales' at that point. Of course, Best shat the bed there, had a decent game against Leinster to raise my hopes, then promptly laid a number 2 on the pillow against Sarries (although our problems seem to go deeper than him). But the total collapse is very recent. Most of the tournament he was a decent international hooker.

And yeah, I like Hibbard's power, but it's not unique, and it's not standout as internationals go imo. Better him than Hartley, better someone else again... anyway, I'll try to have a look at that Scarlets game some point.

Hibbard is one of the best pick-and-drive forwards I've seen in the game. It isn't pretty in the stats, because even making a meter per carry is an achievement when you pick-and-drive, but it's valuable to have in a team.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Youngs is excellent in the loose, but I question his work in the lineout and scrums.

Did you watch the Toulon match?

 

[dullonien]

Did you watch the Toulon match?

Yup, and I know the Leicester lineout and scrum were good in that match. I still think Youngs has some developing to do, mainly to improve his consistency.

I think it's becoming obvious that rating hookers is a very subjective thing. I thought that Best was very average in the 6 nations, other than the game against Wales where he was great. But the stats suggest that he was decent. The stats don't back-up Hibbard and Owens' performances which I thought were excellent throughout.

I do think that the way Hibbard plays make his stats appear average. As j'nuh says, he carries close in to the ruck where going is tough, whearas Best, Owens and Youngs are often found wider out in midfield where there's more space. Nothing wrong with either, so long as there's balance in the side. But it does make comparing stats very misleading.

The stats on ESPN once again are questionable. In the Wales v England game, Owens has 0 turnovers, be we all know that isn't the case, whether it was legal or illegal. I suppose ultimately the England player lost control of the ball, but to me that was still a turnover to Owens (again rightly or wrongly).