Tri Nations: All Blacks - Springboks @ Westpac Stadium (30-07-2011, 07:35 GMT)

[Amobokoboko]

Was a good game. Up to the next one

 

[JW.]

Indeed when Jane stepped inside Smith, Rossouw was to slow lazy too cover Smith's inside. A regular nr.8 would have prevented that try by Jane. Rossouw was outpaced for most part of the game and looked like a prop/lock.

Messam deserves a higher rating than a 6. Was very busy when he came on and looked like he belonged there, played well.

 

[Darwin]

Good idea; let's try to make conclusions of the bok side.

I strongly disagree with your opinion on Rossouw. I think he was the best ZA player. I was disappointed about Lambie and satisfied with Jacobs: he gained metres and pretty much contained Nonu.

South Africa's defence is just a matter of coaching. It's been at least ten years that the boks have impressed the world with their fast, from the outside defence, it's not the time to change it. The "covering towards the outside" (don't know he name in english, sorry) is upsetting the players. Obviously the midfielders are not getting it (see Steyn and Olivier in Oz's third try last week for an example), forwards are not fast enough (see Smit and Rossow as mentioned in the comment quoted) and the outside backs are not quick enough (Mvovo lost the last man in a number of occasions).

Apart from his poor defense, I agree Rossouw was actually one of the better South African players - he carried the ball well, and had a good work-rate around the park. He did exactly what you want your lock to do... unfortunately he was playing 8, and I feel he is just too slow to make the tackles that a Number 8 should be making...

Lambie certainly didn't standout, but I don't think anyone wearing the South African 10 jersey would have done much better with the ball they were delivered... indeed I can think of many that would have done worse (I'm think specially about the guy who played in the 15 jersey). Lambie tackled well, was pretty solid in general play, and made few errors. At times he even looked to run when he got the ball in hand; it was certainly a shock to me to see a South African 10 running with the ball

 

[smartcooky]

darwin

Roussouw ran a lot of the wrong lines for a No. 8, both on defence and on attack. No. 8 is partially responsible for defence in both the left and right channels at scrum time as well as at breakdowns where he is present, and is expected to be fast enough to run cover defence as well.

Running the wrong lines when you are already too slow anyway is a recipe for disaster.

With his work-rate and ball carrying ability, if he HAD to play in a loose forward position, he might have been better at blindside flanker instead of Deysel, and then they could have put Ryan Kankowski (a specialist No. 8) on the back of the scrum

That's my 2p worth anyway.

 

[Darwin]

darwin

Roussouw ran a lot of the wrong lines for a No. 8, both on defence and on attack. No. 8 is partially responsible for defence in both the left and right channels at scrum time as well as at breakdowns where he is present, and is expected to be fast enough to run cover defence as well.

Running the wrong lines when you are already too slow anyway is a recipe for disaster.

With his work-rate and ball carrying ability, if he HAD to play in a loose forward position, he might have been better at blindside flanker instead of Deysel, and then they could have put Ryan Kankowski (a specialist No. 8) on the back of the scrum

That's my 2p worth anyway.

Couldn't agree more with that analysis... as you say, if he HAD to play a loose-forward position he should have been played at blindside flanker, but personally I would have started him at lock (with Kankowski at 8).

 

[Sam Owen]

SBW was offside when he made that tackle, therefore he was closer to the opposition when he made the tackle and less 'fuel' in the hooker's legs. The fact is that Smit was moving at such a speed and angle that it made it difficult for him to be stopped.

He still couldve been stopped and that video wouldve shown SBWs approach, thats what Im talking about. Or do you reckon Ma'as approach was correct?...stand there, play by the rules and be on side and let Smit get his way.

In terms of SBW being a better tackler than Nonu, that is absolutely rubbish. Williams enjoys to go for body-hits, which are like his days in league. If he misses the tackle, or the attacker gets the ball away then A LOT of space is left open behind and around him.

Are you always looking for my posts to disagree with?...pfft. Its like you always do, I mean really. You have to be the worst Sonny Bill hater on this forum. You talk bad about him more than your own countries underperforming players, its like he is the worst player that can do no right when you describe him, geez.

Man on man SBW doesnt miss big tackles in the Super Rugby and if you know your Super Rugby (which is clear that you dont but you talk anyway) you would have seen the Bulls game where Ma'a missed Olivier and cost them the game. If you lived in NZ you wouldve seen Ma'a on the news talking about how gutted he was to MISS the tackle that COST the 'Canes their game. Sonny doesnt miss major one on one tackles, off side on side it doesnt matter Sonny will effect the tackle.

Sonny is a far better defender than Ma'a. I like Ma'a believe me and Sonny. You Gavin hate SBW and thats why your opinions are tunneled visioned that way, almost without fail.

 

[Gavin]

Are you always looking for my posts to disagree with?...pfft. Its like you always do, I mean really. You have to be the worst Sonny Bill hater on this forum. You talk bad about him more than your own countries underperforming players, its like he is the worst player that can do no right when you describe him, geez.

Man on man SBW doesnt miss big tackles in the Super Rugby and if you know your Super Rugby (which is clear that you dont but you talk anyway) you would have seen the Bulls game where Ma'a missed Olivier and cost them the game. If you lived in NZ you wouldve seen Ma'a on the news talking about how gutted he was to MISS the tackle that COST the 'Canes their game. Sonny doesnt miss major one on one tackles, off side on side it doesnt matter Sonny will effect the tackle.

Sonny is a far better defender than Ma'a. I like Ma'a believe me and Sonny. You Gavin hate SBW and thats why your opinions are tunneled visioned that way, almost without fail.

I have no problem with SBW; I think he is a fantastic player, though the whole band-wagon saying he is better than Nonu I find it disrespectful. If you refer back to the thread 'which players do you hate' I replied 'I love them all'.

I would like to think that I know my Super rugby. I have been watching it for about four years. Also I finished 5th in this years TRF Super15 Prediction competition and currently lead the FoxSports Tri Nations Prediction League for TRF. To say that I don't know what I am talking about is completely rude, I may not have the knowledge of people who live in New Zealand in terms of daily rugby events, but I have a strong belief that I know what I speak.

Back to the topic, I have been reading that some people are suggesting Steyn may be finished in International rugby, and this is why PdV switched Lambie and himself before the game. In the new age of running rugby Steyn is past it and Lambie needs to be carefully managed (just like James O'Connor) and a team built around him of young, running players.

 

[Sam Owen]

To say that I don't know what I am talking about is completely rude

Rude??... you called one of my opinions 'absolute rubbish', thats rude and that was first blood.

When Sonny plays a good game for the All Blacks or any team, I dont come on to the forum to say 'I told you so'. Actually I dont really mention him. If he had a good game, he had a good game and the critics dont talk. But as soon as he has a quiet game or a bad game, the critics just jump on here and start typing away and fair enough, but its just that with some people one can do no right. Im not certain you are a SBW hater Gavin but it sure feels like it and even if you are, sweet as thats you.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Aye, SBW is good at many things, but defending isn't one of them
He's average at best in that regard

In regard to his not using shoulder barges since going to Super Rugby:

 

[Sam Owen]

Aye, SBW is good at many things, but defending isn't one of them
He's average at best in that regard

In regard to his not using shoulder barges since going to Super Rugby:

Yeah I already mentioned this and I think Sonny is a good defender.

 

[Seaton]

Aye, he is a good defender, stops all opponents before him.

When he uses his shoulder, which is quite often

What are peoples thoughts on Mvovo and Juan de Jongh in this game? I thought the former got caught out of position a few times in defence, whilst the latter seems to be taking awfully long to improve his physicallity, which showed in this game, yeah I know he is facing pretty strong opponents, but he is as thin as a stick, and a little bit more muscle in certain periods in this match could have gotten the Boks a few more line breaks and more points scored, as well as fewer conceded. Imo, he seriously needs a gym monkey as a roomate.

 

[smartcooky]

Aye, SBW is good at many things, but defending isn't one of them
He's average at best in that regard

In regard to his not using shoulder barges since going to Super Rugby:

I have heard stories of players switching to league and in their first few trial games, placing the ball when they are tackled. Similarly, I have SEEN a league player who switched to Union, try to get up and play the ball when tackled. This comes under the general heading of "old habits die hard."

SBW polarizes people. I think this has been the case ever since the business with him leaving the Bulldogs. Some people still haven't got over it.

I promise you this though. One day, there will be a book, and the truth about the business that went down with SBW leaving the Bulldogs will come out. I know a couple of journos who have the gen on this, and when the story does come out, there are going to be some people with very red faces and some people diving for cover....and SBW and Khoder Nasser will not be among them!

 

[madflyhalf]

IMO SBW defence in SuperXV final (and in the 2nd half of the tournament) has been quite lazy...

If he will be in the starting XV, I think he will be tested by some of the Australian unpredictable good runners (JOC, Beale, Ioane)

 

[big ginger 8]

Why do people think SBW is physical just cause of his size? I do think he is very good but he doesn't exactly throw his wait around.
Also Sam Owen he wouldn't have stopped Smit that is one of Smit specialties remember the 1rst test in the 09 Lions. He powered past Croft a much better defender.

 

[JW.]

It was the angle at which he was running to brushed aside Carter and Nonu had to try and tackle him from the side, nobody would've stopped him.

 

[nickdnz]

Not bad overall but I'm sure someone will back me up when I say you got Liam Messam totally wrong. In my eyes he more than made up for a quiet game against fiji. He got a lot of touches on the ball and only failed to get over the advantage line once, even getting some comments about his workrate and strength from the comentary put in a couple of driving hits and also ran decoy well which was a big part of Kaino's game when he was on. From about the 55th min when messam came on to the end his name popped up maybe more than anyone else. Only one thing he did wasn't great with one pass to weepu from a scrum which should have been better but nothing bad vame of it.

You gave messam 6
John Afoa was on the field for less than 10min? did very little before he went off injured but he's got 6.5? Hoeata 6.5... Flynn 6.5... neither on for long or really did anything.

I've got players I like to hate too but at least when they play well I try and give them credit.

Jeezzz. I admit I must be wrong on Messam, I didn't think he played all that well, but I clearly missed a lot. Other than that, 6.5/6 is pretty much a pass mark for what time you were on for. While Afoa was only on briefly, the one scrum he was in was one of the best ones in the game up till that point. The last comment is pretty uncalled for, as anyone who reads most of my posts will know that

a). I'd have Messam in my RWC squad over Victor Vito (and I'm a big Vito fan). On form I picked him as the best loose forward this season.
b). I hate Zac Guildford with a passion, and he still gets an 8/10 and I'm not a Cowan fan either who also got 8/10.

I may have missed a trick with Messam (I was watching in a pub, so didn't notice commentary), but I'd hardly say I was bias. As it so happens, I do give credit to players who I think do well, and not just the ones who wear Chiefs jerseys.

Brother, John Smit can be stopped believe or not and from that position.

So no-one in the All Blacks can stop Smit aye??...just cos Ma'a cant it doesnt mean it cant be done, he aint 50 cent.

Like I said before Sonny is a better defender than Ma'a, we all know that.

Sonny likes to come up off the line and tackle not just stand there. Heres what I think wouldve happened, look for 00:14 where Sonny tackles Stormers hooker Liedenburg who is bigger than Smit.

No one in the All Blacks would of stopped Smit', lol that is kind of funny ahhh...

No one is saying John Smit is an unstoppable force, however no one in Nonu's position would have defended that. Daniel Carter was the player on the inside of Smit, with multiple dummy runners on the inside (covered by Ben Franks) and on the outside (covered by Nonu). Now with only way in which Nonu could have defended that would be if his positional play was wrong. You are meant to trust your inside man. I'm not saying Nonu's defense if perfect, but like usual your opinion of Sonny Bill's defense is inflated. He didn't make a tackle all game, despite playing in the most hit channel of defense.

As for the whole "sholder tackle" thing, people are just plain wrong about that. They must look at the odd youtube video watching SBW do the occasional sholder charge but realistically he makes very few, if any big hits in a game. He's not a bad defender, but I'd say he is a very tame one. One of his best assets of late has actually been his work in the ruck after a tackle. He's not a Conrad Smith level defender, but it's not an obvious weakness either.

As mentioned before, people think SBW is a lot like Ma'a Nonu in terms of his power. He's not. He hits the line hard enough to break the advantage line, get an arm free and look for the offload. Which is good, but he's not a hard line breaker, or a hard defender. He's a talented player, but he certainly is judged far too much on his size and league reputation. Conrad Smith actually breaks far more tackles and breaks the line far more often than Sonny Bill Williams, certainly at All Black level at least.

 

[Rhyer]

Conrad Smith breaks more tackles than Ma'a Nonu... Seriously underrated.

 

[Dougydeluxe]

It was a good game, I also think the score line does not reflect the level of this game. A lot of calls went against SA or illegal turnovers occurred right when they were building up to a possible try or at least a kick. The ABs did play well and rightly deserved the win, but if SA just had a few more quality players sprinkled into the starting XV, it could have been much closer.

Lambie fully impressed me. He was great on defense (not good, great), he made good tackles, then quick as a jiffy was back up and sliding into his position for what ever was next. He also did play well with what ball he got, always trying new things and looked to be enjoying himself even with his team collapsing all around him. He also played for the Sharks that played very well this season. This game he had to try and play well on the back foot and I think he did it pretty good for a 20 year old.

 

[Shaggy]

I don't think Nonu or SBW are defensively at the standard of Conrad Smith, and to me, I think it's a mistake to play Nonu and SBW in the 12 and 13 jerseys at the same time. Both Nonu and SBW are both better players defensively, when Smith is in the 13 jersey.

I agree with the comments made that if you were going to play all three, Nonu is the player that has the most impact of the bench at the moment, but this could change, as it's still early days in SBW's career ... i'm not saying that SBW is a better 12 than Nonu, I just think it works better when Nonu is the replacement, much like it seems too work better when Weepu replaces Cowan, than it does the other way around .

 

[nickdnz]

I don't think Nonu or SBW are defensively at the standard of Conrad Smith, and to me, I think it's a mistake to play Nonu and SBW in the 12 and 13 jerseys at the same time. Both Nonu and SBW are both better players defensively, when Smith is in the 13 jersey.

I agree with the comments made that if you were going to play all three, Nonu is the player that has the most impact of the bench at the moment, but this could change, as it's still early days in SBW's career ... i'm not saying that SBW is a better 12 than Nonu, I just think it works better when Nonu is the replacement, much like it seems too work better when Weepu replaces Cowan, than it does the other way around .

Well that's relative. I think SBW's and Nonu's All Black careers probably have the same time frame to go. They are both contracted till after the 2012 season.