Tri Nations: All Blacks - Springboks @ Westpac Stadium (30-07-2011, 07:35 GMT)

[TNT88]

well yeah because im judging him as an allblack overall not just each game hence my statement. maybe you just rate a player too high when they have a mediocre game against a below average squad.

Well provide us with some actual examples in the game then, because none of us seem to recall his performance as such. Even when confronted with his statistics you just refuse to listen. So no i don't think the problem is me. I just think you are trying to bag a player using any means possible. How do you judge someone as an All Black? What is the criteria? Do 15 players in NZ fit this criteria?

 

[Sam Owen]

I can imagine the type of 'tackle' Sonny-Bill would have attempted in that situation

Would most likely involve a shoulder to the chin with no arms

You honestly think so?...geez ok.

Well, we havent seen that at all this year, or last year, or ever since hes been playing Union in the SH. So I dont see how you can come up with that conclusion. Maybe you were thinking about SBW the League player if not show us a video of Sonny doing a shoulder to the chin with no arms in the last year.

 

[nickdnz]

SBW doesn't belong at centre ... pssshhh whatever.

He started off slowly and made some errors trying to force stuff but once he settled in some of his offloads were key for further NZ points, granted at 13 he is ineffective.

As Olyy noticed, I meant he doesn't belong at centre in New Zealand's positional terms. He's a 2nd 5/8th or inside centre. I don't think he really made any impact at 13, and has never made any impact there.

SBW failed to make much of impact, which didn't surprise me at all, as he always seems to take a while to get into games off the bench. For me he should either be starting or watching from the stands.

Agreed 100%. There is really no need to have Sonny Bill Williams in the reserves, as he isn't versatile enough to fill in for a back three injury. What I suspect would happen if Guildford, Jane or Muliaina got injured, is you would see Colin Slade moved to fullback, which while he can play well there, it's not ideal. I agree that if either Nonu or SBW doesn't start, they should not be in the 22. That's what Isaia Toeava is for.

Well the thing is, you dont see Sonny miss tackles. Another thing is the 'Boks only try came from a determined surge from their captain John Smit who had to get past Nonu to score. Nonu did his best but if you look at the replay and imagine Sonny there, Smit wouldnt have scored IMO. Sonny being a better defender technically and has a lateral advantage, wouldve either 1. wrapped him up or 2. come up with a big hit.

In fairness, there was nothing that Nonu could do, as it was Carter who was supposed to take down Smit. Certainly don't think SBW would have stopped him. 1:00

 

[smartcooky]

Wow, those are impressive! 74 metres for a line out player is very good! I thought he made a few handling errors, guess I was wrong. Could you please bring up the stats for Samuel Whitelock and Jerome Kaino?

Sam Whitelock

Kick/Pass/Run 0/3/3
Running metres gained - 0 (presumably ran and lost metres or was tackled before any metres were gained)
Defenders beaten - 0
Turnovers won -0
Tackles made/missed 4/0
Lineouts won on own throw/off opposition 1/0
Penalties given away - 0

Jerome Kaino

Kick/Pass/Run 0/2/5
Running metres gained - 18
Defenders beaten - 0
Turnovers won -0
Tackles made/missed - 9/1
Lineouts won on own throw/off opposition - 2/0
Penalties given away - 0

 

[Sam Owen]

Certainly don't think SBW would have stopped him. 1:00

Sonny is a far better defender than Ma'a. Ma'a just waits on the line at times and sometimes just stone cold misses (eg Nonu vs Olivier). Sonny comes up and in, Sonny certainly wouldve stopped him.

 

[nickdnz]

Sonny is a far better defender than Ma'a. Ma'a just waits on the line at times and sometimes just stone cold misses (eg Nonu vs Olivier). Sonny comes up and in, Sonny certainly wouldve stopped him.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree here.

 

[Sam Owen]

I can imagine the type of 'tackle' Sonny-Bill would have attempted in that situation

Would most likely involve a shoulder to the chin with no arms

Hmmm...I did find a video of what you are talking about, but that was the ONLY time. 'SBW smash on Kankowski', I think thats what its called on youtube. Anyway at the bottom you'll see a video of SBW defending his line against Liedenburg whos bigger than Smit but you'll see what I think Sonny would have done in that situation against the rampant John Smit.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree here.

Yep, opinion clash not suprising considering the subject. Here bro check out Sonny on the defence line, this is what I think Sonny wouldve done to Smit. Watch for 00:14.

 

[smartcooky]

As Olyy noticed, I meant he doesn't belong at centre in New Zealand's positional terms. He's a 2nd 5/8th or inside centre. I don't think he really made any impact at 13, and has never made any impact there.

I agree that centre is not is best position, but he has played there a number of times with both Canterbury in last year's ITM Cup and with the Crusaders in this years Super Rugby

However, 2nd 5/8 is his best position. Here, he fires a big skip pass over to Adam Thomson, then follows up his pass to get into position to pick up a knee-high pass back from Thomson, then pushes his arms through two tacklers to slip a short inside offload to Zac Guildford in the lead up to Guildford's second try.

Watch from about 09:35 onwards



This is the type of play that make's him valuable; most other players would either have tried to make the line break or taken the tackle to set up the ruck.

 

[Siva Tau]

AB' set piece must be a worry for the Wallabies.

Richie looked to be improving but still a long way from his best. Thomson overshadowed Kaino who after some breakthrough performances last year has slipped. He might overshadow Elsom but Higginbottom would eat him.

The backs were awesome and will pose a real headache to Henry particularly Guildford. SBW looked the odd one-out with Nonu-Smith combo solid.

I would still love to see Ranger and Freuen get a run at 13 out side Nonu. I think Ranger would offer some versatility to the bench. Even against the Reds in S15 he was considered even by the Oz commentators to be a match winner.

Also cant wait to see Gear, Read, Mealamu and Woodcock back in although the latter has some real competition now with Crockett and Franks bro's

 

[Darwin]

AB' set piece must be a worry for the Wallabies.

Richie looked to be improving but still a long way from his best. Thomson overshadowed Kaino who after some breakthrough performances last year has slipped. He might overshadow Elsom but Higginbottom would eat him.

The backs were awesome and will pose a real headache to Henry particularly Guildford. SBW looked the odd one-out with Nonu-Smith combo solid.

I would still love to see Ranger and Freuen get a run at 13 out side Nonu. I think Ranger would offer some versatility to the bench. Even against the Reds in S15 he was considered even by the Oz commentators to be a match winner.

Also cant wait to see Gear, Read, Mealamu and Woodcock back in although the latter has some real competition now with Crockett and Franks bro's

One quiet (not poor by any stretch) game by Kaino (his first start about a month) doesn't mean he has slipped - he had some brilliant games for the Blues during the season; indeed it was evident how much the Blues missed him whenever he was not playing. He had a very strong match last weekend from the bench too. He is far and away the best blindside flanker in NZ in my opinion... he certainly has nothing to fear from either Elsom or Higginbotham (who will spend his whole time standing on the wing in any case...)

 

[Seaton]

Hmmm...I did find a video of what you are talking about, but that was the ONLY time. 'SBW smash on Kankowski', I think thats what its called on youtube. Anyway at the bottom you'll see a video of SBW defending his line against Liedenburg whos bigger than Smit but you'll see what I think Sonny would have done in that situation against the rampant John Smit.

Yep, opinion clash not suprising considering the subject. Here bro check out Sonny on the defence line, this is what I think Sonny wouldve done to Smit. Watch for 00:14.

He had at least 3 this season, however the one on Kanko overshadowed them all.

One I can remember was him in the Western Force game, late shoulder on Cummins or O Connor I think

Whilst I can't specifically remember any other incidents, I'd be willing to bet my house (if I owned own) that over the course of the last year, he has done at least three shoulder charges

Oh, and btw, I wasn't being 100% serious (about how he would have delt with Smit), twas just a half-hearted comment

 

[smartcooky]

New Zealands new shirt has White on it! Disrespectful ********!*

New Zealand shirts have had white collars for over 100 years.

PS: And why is your username in Black? Disrespectful B*****d!

PPS: And what happened to "Bullitt"?

 

[Sker]

That's a smashing moustache

 

[Darwin]

It will be interesting to see what (if anything) South Africa can take out of this game. I thought the starting props were ok. John Smit actually looked good at times with the ball in hand, breaking a number of tackles (which surprised me), but his defence was shocking. He just moves so slowly laterally that anyone with a even a small amount of speed can get past him. I actually think Danie Rossouws defense is not much better, as he too missed a pile of tackles. He is far too slow to be playing in the loose-forwards in test rugby in my opinion, and I'm even starting to question whether he has the pace to play at lock (due to his defensive issues). I thought Mostert was one of the few impressive players in the Boks forwards; he seemed to do the basics very well. Stegmann tried hard but was out of his depth, and I though Deysel tried hard, he too was largely ineffective.

It is hard to judge the Boks backs with the poor ball they were given, but I thought Lambie had a pretty good game. His defense in particular was impressive; I remember him stopping a full speed Nonu head on a couple of times. There is certainly a lot of pressure on Morne Steyn, as he was again poor and looked lost at times at fullback. I feel sorry for the Boks wings, as though they look like they could be dangerous if the get the ball, they were basically restricted to chasing kicks. Both Mvovo and Basson struggled again in defense though (as they did v Aussie), both probably missing as many tackles as they made...

 

[lance2010]

Well the thing is, you dont see Sonny miss tackles. Another thing is the 'Boks only try came from a determined surge from their captain John Smit who had to get past Nonu to score. Nonu did his best but if you look at the replay and imagine Sonny there, Smit wouldnt have scored IMO. Sonny being a better defender technically and has a lateral advantage, wouldve either 1. wrapped him up or 2. come up with a big hit.

I would ask for some examples of Sonny being 'clueless' but then again Im not the type to watch Rugby to see whos not in the right position for defence.

Other than the time Smit scored, the All Black defence was good.

No one in the All Blacks would of stopped Smit from the same position,and the fact the Boks took the line out surprised the AB's,"Imagine" Sonny there" he wouldn't of stopped him.SBW missed a couple of tackles.
1. wrapped him up,Maybe if SBW had come up to meet Smit which i highly doubt it or 2. come up with a big hit.
Yes and probably would of used no arms too

 

[Larksea]

Well, good game to watch. My thoughts on the All Blacks.

1. Wyatt Crockett: What. A. Beast. New Zealand's scrum totally dominated. Nice try in the corner to top it off. 8/10
2. Andrew Hore: Best game for the All Blacks in a while. Scrummaged well, threw in pretty well and he was a monster in the rucks and with the ball. 8/10
3. Ben Franks: Had a bit of a quiet game, but he did his core job pretty well, as the scrum showed. 7.5/10
4. Sam Whitelock: Did pretty well in the lineout, was busy around the breakdown. 7/10
5. Ali Williams: Looked much better than last week. He still hangs out way too much in the backline, but he at least held onto the ball and hit the line hard. 7/10
6. Jerome Kaino: Can't understand why he was taken off for Messam at blindside. Had a very solid game making a lot of tackles. 7.5/10
7. Richie McCaw: His best game this year in my opinion. Was constantly disruptive at the breakdown. My only issue is that he hits the line too much. 7/10
8. Adam Thompson: Looked pretty solid at 8 for most of the game. Still not in the same ball park as Kieran Read, but did well. 7/10
9. Jimmy Cowan: I thought he had his best game in a long time. His delivery was better than usual, and he was a typically good in defense. 8/10
10. Dan Carter: Was amazing with ball in hand. Had a shocking goal kicking game, but he cut the Springboks up on foot. 8.5/10
11. Zac Guildford: Finished oppertunities nicely, which is what he was brought in to do. Very busy around the park. Still don't like him but - 8/10
12. Ma'a Nonu: Good, but still not quite block-busting. He certainly is very heavily marked. 7/10
13. Conrad Smith: Still the best centre in the world. Broke a crap load of tackles, made his passes stick, great defense and was like a flanker in the breakdown. 8.5/10
14. Cory Jane: As I've said 100 times. He needs to be in the RWC squad. He doesn't put a foot wrong and is magic for the All Blacks. Two great tries as well. 9/10
15. Mils Muliaina: My favourite game from him in a long time. He did he is best at and set up Jane and Guildford all day. Played unselfishly and you see how well it worked. 8.5/10

16. Corey Flynn: Did pretty well when he came on. Didn't do much special, but was solid. 6.5/10
17. John Afoa: Was good while he was on the field, shame he got injured so quickly. 6.5/10
18. Jarrad Hoeata: Pretty solid when he came on. Nothing too special, but did nothing wrong. Again had too little game time to judge. 6.5/10
19. Liam Messam: Had a very quiet game when he came on. Didn't have the grunt that Kaino had. 6/10
20. Piri Weepu: For the first time in a few years I though he didn't look as good as Cowan when he came on. Still did pretty well, but not as good as he can play. 6.5/10
21. Colin Slade: Again, did well when he came on the field. Looked pretty good with DC outside him. I wasn't a fan of the shuffling of positions. 7/10
22. Sonny Bill Williams: Probably was the quietest of the centres this game. Did nothig wrong but nothing special really. Certainly doesn't belong at centre. 6/10

Not bad overall but I'm sure someone will back me up when I say you got Liam Messam totally wrong. In my eyes he more than made up for a quiet game against fiji. He got a lot of touches on the ball and only failed to get over the advantage line once, even getting some comments about his workrate and strength from the comentary put in a couple of driving hits and also ran decoy well which was a big part of Kaino's game when he was on. From about the 55th min when messam came on to the end his name popped up maybe more than anyone else. Only one thing he did wasn't great with one pass to weepu from a scrum which should have been better but nothing bad vame of it.

You gave messam 6
John Afoa was on the field for less than 10min? did very little before he went off injured but he's got 6.5? Hoeata 6.5... Flynn 6.5... neither on for long or really did anything.

I've got players I like to hate too but at least when they play well I try and give them credit.

 

[Sam Owen]

No one in the All Blacks would of stopped Smit from the same position

Brother, John Smit can be stopped believe or not and from that position.

So no-one in the All Blacks can stop Smit aye??...just cos Ma'a cant it doesnt mean it cant be done, he aint 50 cent.

Like I said before Sonny is a better defender than Ma'a, we all know that.

Sonny likes to come up off the line and tackle not just stand there. Heres what I think wouldve happened, look for 00:14 where Sonny tackles Stormers hooker Liedenburg who is bigger than Smit.



'No one in the All Blacks would of stopped Smit', lol that is kind of funny ahhh...

 

[ZeFrenchy]

It will be interesting to see what (if anything) South Africa can take out of this game. I thought the starting props were ok. John Smit actually looked good at times with the ball in hand, breaking a number of tackles (which surprised me), but his defence was shocking. He just moves so slowly laterally that anyone with a even a small amount of speed can get past him. I actually think Danie Rossouws defense is not much better, as he too missed a pile of tackles. He is far too slow to be playing in the loose-forwards in test rugby in my opinion, and I'm even starting to question whether he has the pace to play at lock (due to his defensive issues). I thought Mostert was one of the few impressive players in the Boks forwards; he seemed to do the basics very well. Stegmann tried hard but was out of his depth, and I though Deysel tried hard, he too was largely ineffective.

It is hard to judge the Boks backs with the poor ball they were given, but I thought Lambie had a pretty good game. His defense in particular was impressive; I remember him stopping a full speed Nonu head on a couple of times. There is certainly a lot of pressure on Morne Steyn, as he was again poor and looked lost at times at fullback. I feel sorry for the Boks wings, as though they look like they could be dangerous if the get the ball, they were basically restricted to chasing kicks. Both Mvovo and Basson struggled again in defense though (as they did v Aussie), both probably missing as many tackles as they made...

Good idea; let's try to make conclusions of the bok side.

I strongly disagree with your opinion on Rossouw. I think he was the best ZA player. I was disappointed about Lambie and satisfied with Jacobs: he gained metres and pretty much contained Nonu.

South Africa's defence is just a matter of coaching. It's been at least ten years that the boks have impressed the world with their fast, from the outside defence, it's not the time to change it. The "covering towards the outside" (don't know he name in english, sorry) is upsetting the players. Obviously the midfielders are not getting it (see Steyn and Olivier in Oz's third try last week for an example), forwards are not fast enough (see Smit and Rossow as mentioned in the comment quoted) and the outside backs are not quick enough (Mvovo lost the last man in a number of occasions).

 

[smartcooky]

SBW missed a couple of tackles.

No he didn't. He didn't make any either.

[TEXTAREA]S B Williams

Kick/Pass/Run - 0/3/3
Running metres gained - 11
Offloads - 2
Turnovers Gained - 1
Tackles made/missed - 0/0*
Penalties conceded - 0

*not unusual for a subbed player. Piri Weepu came on at almost the same time, and his stats were 0/0 as well, as were Corey Flynn, Colin Slade and Jared Hoata.[/TEXTAREA]

I actually think Danie Rossouws defense is not much better, as he too missed a pile of tackles. He is far too slow to be playing in the loose-forwards in test rugby in my opinion

I agree. Roussow is a good lock, but at No. 8 (Eightman as they call it in SA) he has all the speed and agility of a carthorse; out paced, out maneuvered and out-thought by his All Black opposites.

South Africa's defence is just a matter of coaching. It's been at least ten years that the boks have impressed the world with their fast, from the outside defence, it's not the time to change it. The "covering towards the outside" (don't know he name in english, sorry) is upsetting the players. Obviously the midfielders are not getting it (see Steyn and Olivier in Oz's third try last week for an example), forwards are not fast enough (see Smit and Rossow as mentioned in the comment quoted) and the outside backs are not quick enough (Mvovo lost the last man in a number of occasions).

Covering from the outside = In English we call this a Rush Defence, where the outside backs rush up in an attempt to stop the ball going wide.

Covering towards the outside = In English, this is called a Sliding Defence. As the attacking team passes the ball out wide towards the wing the defence shuffles across the field using the touchline as an extra defender.

 

[Gavin]

Brother, John Smit can be stopped believe or not and from that position.

So no-one in the All Blacks can stop Smit aye??...just cos Ma'a cant it doesnt mean it cant be done, he aint 50 cent.

Like I said before Sonny is a better defender than Ma'a, we all know that.

Sonny likes to come up off the line and tackle not just stand there. Heres what I think wouldve happened, look for 00:14 where Sonny tackles Stormers hooker Liedenburg who is bigger than Smit.

'No one in the All Blacks would of stopped Smit', lol that is kind of funny ahhh...

SBW was offside when he made that tackle, therefore he was closer to the opposition when he made the tackle and less 'fuel' in the hooker's legs. The fact is that Smit was moving at such a speed and angle that it made it difficult for him to be stopped. In terms of SBW being a better tackler than Nonu, that is absolutely rubbish. Williams enjoys to go for body-hits, which are like his days in league. If he misses the tackle, or the attacker gets the ball away then A LOT of space is left open behind and around him.