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Spring Tour: South Africa v England -3rd Test. (23/06/2012 16:00 GMT)

Opposition? So you're English now hey? You really feel Goosen is the best fly-half in the country? I think Lambie is a better option though since he has a wider variety of tricks up his sleeve. Goosen is still young and needs time to develop.

cuz i support the team playing against you, cuz u kill rugby... running rugby... not that england play running rugby themselves... just because i'm an AB...

lambie being better is debatable... i think goosen will be the best flyhalf this country will have to date... lambie is a running flyhalf, SA gameplan is suited for kicking flyhalves...

lambie will not be used... Goosen will as he is actally a running flyhalf but comes across as a kicking flyhalf, i think he has a very good running game but he will be favoured over lambie...

i know lambie is good... it's your system than sucks balls... i also felt that ruan pienaar would have been a brilliant running flyhalf... but your system not...

SA is not suited for the running game, too "stampkar" orionted mindset... its not pretty but gets the job done ;)

anybody seen Gear's try vs ireland??? :O
 
Goosen is a good fly-half and definitely one of the biggest surprises so far in 2012 but he misses the vision to really make decisions for 80 minutes at top level. It is difficult to choose between the 2 but Lambie to me, and a lot of others, is the natural successor of Morne Steyn.

We have a lot of talent. All we need is a coach to use it.

How about we cut Heyneke some slack (just a little). This was his first time coaching a national team, at any level. To win 2 out of 3 and not lose a game is IMO a job well done.

The first part of his job is now done and dusted, he has now seen what works and what doesn't. Also he has now seen who is on form or not and who fits into his game plan and who doesn't.

All the injuries made his decision making more difficult. So he used the fall-back of experienced players, some worked, some didn't... now he can go back and reflect.
 
Judging from SuperRugby form, Goosen was the standout flyhalf behind Lambie to me of the South African first fives. I believe Goosen would do well in a Springbok jumper and wouldn't look out of place at all. He shows a hell of alot of "match" maturity when he is on.

the other reason why i also feel goosen is better than lambie is because of teh forwards each of these players play behind...

lambie has a slightly easier job than goosen... the sharks forwards are way better than the cheetahs forwards...

imagine goosen behind bismark, beast, ezhebeth (i think he is brillaint), etc etc...

i might be wrong :?
 
the other reason why i also feel goosen is better than lambie is because of teh forwards each of these players play behind...

lambie has a slightly easier job than goosen... the sharks forwards are way better than the cheetahs forwards...

imagine goosen behind bismark, beast, ezhebeth (i think he is brillaint), etc etc...

i might be wrong :?

Wow, I forgot Etzebeth plays for the Sharks. Great debating dude! Naming 2 players to point out the difference between the Sharks- and Cheetahs pack (which is a total of 8).

The Cheetahs pack is not that much different from the Sharks pack.

Mtawarira - Oosthuizen
Bismarck - Strauss
Jannie - Nel
Sykes - v.d. Westhuizen
Bresler - Ferreira
Coetzee - Brussow
Alberts - Johnson
Daniel - v.d. Walt

I don't count more than 4 positions in which the Sharks are better though. The reason you like Goosen more than Lambie is because deep down you get a warm feeling from long kicking. Admit it!
 
Heineken, I spat some poison when I felt PdV was making mistakes and as a passionate supporter I'll do so when I think HM does the same. My opinion is that of someone who wants to see the Bokke at the very top and stay there.

You can't say Meyer has seen who is on form and who not etc as everyone knew Steyn was not at his best and Lambie was available at the time and then Jantjies was available when Lambie was shifted to 15 but he stuck by Steyn and all indications are that he will continue to do so with Hougaard at 9. That is a huge mistake and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see it.

If we were going to play a horses for courses gameplan and try and beat England with the 'tried-and-trusted' kick and chase, which is the absolute only reason to select M Steyn, then why Hougaard over Pienaar as that doesn't fit the gameplan? Many choices were just wrong and we seem to be stuck with the problem PdV also had with making en-masse substitutions everywhere except where the problem is and just compounding the dilemma.

Meyer has my full support - as PdV had for a full year- but I will call a problem when I see one and I see a couple.
 
How about we cut Heyneke some slack (just a little). This was his first time coaching a national team, at any level. To win 2 out of 3 and not lose a game is IMO a job well done.

The first part of his job is now done and dusted, he has now seen what works and what doesn't. Also he has now seen who is on form or not and who fits into his game plan and who doesn't.

All the injuries made his decision making more difficult. So he used the fall-back of experienced players, some worked, some didn't... now he can go back and reflect.

nah i would be worried, yes it's heineken 1st few games as manager BUT when they show the coaches booth, heineken was paniching in his booth... he looked like the away coach...

maybe he just wanted 3 wins to get the critics off his back... but there are some fans who look at qaulity of play aswell as just a win, regardless of how poor the play in taht game...

and that is something i hate about the 1dimention Bok fans...

SA rugby board will need to sit down and decide...

do we want to win regardless of how we play, or do we want to win with good positive flowing running rugby using the backline more... instaed of crashing forwards into the opposition etc

cuz there is a huge diff, playing attractively does not always let you win the game... but its a small sacrifice to reach your end result...

remember you building for the world cup in 2015... to be the best in the world means to play the best rugby...
 
How about we cut Heyneke some slack (just a little). This was his first time coaching a national team, at any level. To win 2 out of 3 and not lose a game is IMO a job well done.

The first part of his job is now done and dusted, he has now seen what works and what doesn't. Also he has now seen who is on form or not and who fits into his game plan and who doesn't.

All the injuries made his decision making more difficult. So he used the fall-back of experienced players, some worked, some didn't... now he can go back and reflect.

I am stepping of this subject as *****ing is not achieving anything and I do agree with heineken to a degree. Quoting from another SA rugby site and I pray this is tue

"listening to some of the things Bok coach Heyneke Meyer said afterwards, with his honest admission that he might need to look at himself as much as he looked at the team in assessing the path forward, you might almost have imagined that he was the coach of Ireland, who lost by 60 points to the All Black, and not a team that extended the unbeaten run against England to 10 matches.But while it might have been a bit melodramatic, Meyer was nonetheless right in suggesting some of his own decisions need to be scrutinised. For a start, when Willem Alberts is not present, there is an imbalance to the back-row, with Marcell Coetzee having to fulfill much more of a carrying role, which meant he neglected the cleaning of the rucks."
 
Heineken, I spat some poison when I felt PdV was making mistakes and as a passionate supporter I'll do so when I think HM does the same. My opinion is that of someone who wants to see the Bokke at the very top and stay there.

You can't say Meyer has seen who is on form and who not etc as everyone knew Steyn was not at his best and Lambie was available at the time and then Jantjies was available when Lambie was shifted to 15 but he stuck by Steyn and all indications are that he will continue to do so with Hougaard at 9. That is a huge mistake and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see it.

If we were going to play a horses for courses gameplan and try and beat England with the 'tried-and-trusted' kick and chase, which is the absolute only reason to select M Steyn, then why Hougaard over Pienaar as that doesn't fit the gameplan? Many choices were just wrong and we seem to be stuck with the problem PdV also had with making en-masse substitutions everywhere except where the problem is and just compounding the dilemma.

Meyer has my full support - as PdV had for a full year- but I will call a problem when I see one and I see a couple.

No fair enough, but in all fairness, look back at the first test, HM picked combinations... Which worked well with the 3 days training they had together, then Kirchner got injured, so HM had to use Lambie at fullback, leaving Morne at fly half as you need experience to win test series, and then Lambie got injured as well.

The last test HM should've given Elton a shot... Simple as that...

nah i would be worried, yes it's heineken 1st few games as manager BUT when they show the coaches booth, heineken was paniching in his booth... he looked like the away coach...

maybe he just wanted 3 wins to get the critics off his back... but there are some fans who look at qaulity of play aswell as just a win, regardless of how poor the play in taht game...

and that is something i hate about the 1dimention Bok fans...

SA rugby board will need to sit down and decide...

do we want to win regardless of how we play, or do we want to win with good positive flowing running rugby using the backline more... instaed of crashing forwards into the opposition etc

cuz there is a huge diff, playing attractively does not always let you win the game... but its a small sacrifice to reach your end result...

remember you building for the world cup in 2015... to be the best in the world means to play the best rugby...

Yeah, it was such fun sitting in my own box at all 3 tests... WTF!!
 
To get a draw in a dead rubber match is hardly a result... When playing for pride as what the Poms were talking about all week, they can't be too proud to go away with no win.

It was clear from the kick-off that England were in a fired up mood and the Boks were lethargic, uncomitted and with their minds clearly somewhere else.

Well firstly I have to say I think this is rubbish. You were always likely to say this if the Springboks didn't get the win. The boks clearly would have wanted to whitewash England just as the Wallabies and the All-backs did against their respective opposition. Do you really think Potgeiter wasn't bothered about making an impact on his debut for the Boks? Look again: the truth is that the boks did not play a 'complete' game in the first two tests, but had the physical dominance and the ability to get over the gain-line every single time and bludgeoned England (who have their own problems) into submission.

The difference this time was that South Africa were not dominating the collisions in quite the same black and white way, and without quick and clean ball you had no real platform, and that this is the case is a credit to the England pack, especially James Haskell and Tom Palmer, and not through lack of trying from the Springboks.
Give credit where credit is due. Same as last week when England took an advantage in the scrums later in the game, and someone on here was putting it down to lock substitutions from South Africa, where an outward-looking and judicious person would have noticed that Englands best loosehead had come on restoring a front-row that has had dominance over most test-sides with the exception of Wales.

Where I agree with you is that England shouldn't be too happy with the draw, when the game was clearly there for the winning. For all the gutsy determination up-front we still lacked the creativity in the backs (I really think we need a proper attack coach who isn't Mike Catt). With guys such as Joseph, May, Wade, Allen etc I don't think that we have remotely the same problems as Scotland, who just have limited attacking talent altogether.

You have to question what South Africa will have taken forward from this tour. Heyneke may have pleased the majority of part-time supporters but the more discerning supporters (such as you guys on this forum) have noticed that a more rounded game is needed to be able to be where South Africa need to be (at the top, and doing well in the 4 nations). The players are all there, but apart from one outing for Potgeiter and a go for Lambie at full-back I'm not sure that Heyneke has used this tour to develop his team as fully as he should have done. Still, the boks are a cracking outfit and I have the utmost respect for them - deservedly one of the top 3 sides.

I don't know if others agree or disagree but I was surprised by the choice of Care as MOTM. He played well enough, showing he's the man for quick and reliable service as well as an eye for attacking opportunities. But his kicking seemed erratic and I think there were more important showings up front. Haskell was able to stop players in and around the gain-line, not always through hits but also by wrapping them up and dragging them down. Palmer again for me showed that he has an impact that goes way beyond his size (very normal for a lock) and was competitive on the gain-line and made some important carries. I think the other forwards benefited hugely from this beef and physicality and Johnson had a better game as a result.

I don't think we've seen yet what Joseph has to offer, but he definitely has all the ability. He was a part of a pretty clueless back-line. Farrel is not the man. He wastes the hard phases put together by our pack when his grubber kicks through for a chasing winger are badly weighted. What he does well is to make hits and tackles low which enables the loose forwards more opportunity to compete for the ball on their feet. Shame we didn't get to see much of Flood. He looked indecisive, but credit must go for an abrasive and attacking South African defensive line. We badly need Ford or Burns to fully 'graduate', as without a top class 10 we will never cut it at the highest echelons of the game.

One worry is that this tour will only have complicated everything in terms of our back-row: Robshaw and Haskell both showed their value in a completely different way(robshaws work at the breakdown versus Haskell's general presence in the loose). Morgan is quality but was off the pace which gave Waldrom an opportunity to shine (which he took), only complicating things further in my opinion. Johnson really worked hard in defence and at the breakdown, also running some decent lines and making ground through agility rather than size. But I do think that until further notice Johnson is a stop-gap for the back-row. Fearns had a decent game(or half-game) against the Northern baa baas and will be an interesting option for the future, especially as he can play all three positions a bit.

I'd like to see us try 6. Haskell 7. Robshaw 8. Morgan 19. Wood sometime later this year. Croft is valuable but we know exactly what he can do and what he brings, we need to give Wood another chance and Haskell a chance to show how he can function as part of a new unit.

A word on Steve Walsh. I don't think he refereed that equitably, but I'm not having a proper moan as I don't think it affected the result at the end of the day. England messed around on the floor a few times in the first half, and I think when South African began doing that a bit later in the second half Walsh was probably still 'mad' at England because he just shouted at the boks fiddling with the ball on the floor telling them to stop, rather than giving the penalty he perhaps should have.

After getting round to watching the northern baa baas game on youtube just now I am excited by Johnny May's performance, and I really think Tom Youngs this time next year could be featuring in a England first choice 22. Hodgson still getting shrugged off tackles too easily. I think from the second choice team its disappointing that not all made the step up and had their best games, and disappointing that our defence was poor. Still, a handful of payers have really put their names forward.
 
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@HenryChinask
I see your point clearly - well put
I see heineken's equally well - as you both see it from your own countries perspective, and rightly so

You came to play 3 matches, got 2 losses and one draw - One day our grand children will just read the stats

See you in November at Twickenham, SA will have sorted their stuff out by then, gone thought a testing 4 nations and at the end of a season; completely the opposite to now - new season and new coach with inadequate proper time to prepare.
It will bring things into perspective as you will be at the start of a new season then

Can't wait
 
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i refer to Heineke Meyer as Heineken... can you atleast see why??? or do i need to point that out aswell...

No, please don't explain! I worry you might make sense at one point. Things are the way they are supposed to be. You are the troll, *****ing and moaning like a spoiled brat and we are the ones being proud in stead of bandwagoning.
 
no, please don't explain! I worry you might make sense at one point. Things are the way they are supposed to be. You are the troll, *****ing and moaning like a spoiled brat and we are the ones being proud in stead of bandwagoning.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
 
@HenryChinask
I see your point clearly - well put
I see heineken's equally well - as you both see it from your own countries perspective, and rightly so

You came to play 3 matches, got 2 losses and one draw - One day our grand children will just read the stats

See you in November at Twickenham, SA will have sorted their stuff out by then, gone thought a testing 4 nations and at the end of a season; completely the opposite to now - new season and new coach with inadequate proper time to prepare.
It will bring things into perspective as you will be at the start of a new season then

Can't wait

You've got a fair point - England's first two performances of the 6N were omnishamble-esque except for the scorelines. The Autumn shall tell us more.

However, when we English reckon our happiness, it does/should include the fact we did it all without at large swathes of our first choice pack (and replacements), rising by the last test to only three guys on the pitch who'd start for an England pack with all fit and in form. The last time we tried tricks like that in SA I believe we experienced prison sex.
 
You've got a fair point - England's first two performances of the 6N were omnishamble-esque except for the scorelines. The Autumn shall tell us more.

However, when we English reckon our happiness, it does/should include the fact we did it all without at large swathes of our first choice pack (and replacements), rising by the last test to only three guys on the pitch who'd start for an England pack with all fit and in form. The last time we tried tricks like that in SA I believe we experienced prison sex.

We can go on like this all day

hmmm, so the Boks are without 3- 5 of their best forwards as well
Record still shows 10 wins without a defeat to the Boks; considering everything, a stat we will take to Twickenham in November

Thanks for the tour, everyone that encountered your team of the field had only good things to say!
 
We can go on like this all day

hmmm, so the Boks are without 3- 5 of their best forwards as well
Record still shows 10 wins without a defeat to the Boks; considering everything, a stat we will take to Twickenham in November

Thanks for the tour, everyone that encountered your team of the field had only good things to say!

For test 1? Who?

Burger yes, Brussow available but apparently not your best, I forgot Juan Smith for a moment as he's been so injury prone I thought he was retired, Matfield's retirement took him out of the picture even if he wanted to go back, Botha likewise... Smit?!

Imo, the only two of those I'd give is Burger and Smith. I'm not counting retirements/omissions - do so, and the English list only grows vaster, albeit slightly dodgy.
 

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