Spring Tour: South Africa v England -3rd Test. (23/06/2012 16:00 GMT)

[Teh Mite]

Next squad, can we have Flood, Burns and someone who isn't Farrell as our flyhalves?

George Ford will come good by the next England tour, may even put his hands up for a lions place (he's already better then Farrell, Flood, Priestland and any Scot you could name).

 

[Tony Manx]

Indeed, he is a prodigious talent but let us give him time and not throw him in too early just because there is no one else....he needs to develop, as Cockers has been allowing him to, and then he will be probably the best fly half we have had for decades including JW. I would say of all time but cannot go back further than decades for comparison!! For his sake, whether it is the 2012 RWC or not is irrelevant if it impedes that progression!

 

[kusta]

Oh man where to begin about yesterdays perfomance, though I didn't catch the game properly as I was out drinking with my boys while watching that game....But from what I can recall:


1st of all I think we didn't even have a game plan, or it was that our forwards could not get us over the advantage line, credit must go to England for such immense physicality and fronting up! And in the realists world if we plan to go with such a game plan to the Four Nations or whatever its called now, we will not only get beaten but we will get a hiding!

2nd of all we saw that some players are only good at Super Rugby level and need time there before being brought into Test rugby, and sadly some will never make that step up for as long as the stay there! Such as Wynand Olivier! Jaque Potgieter did okay but I think that he can get away with crossing the advantage line at Super Rugby level but he won't do that at test rugby unless he puts on a bit of beef!

Morne Steyn doesn't seem to be the answer at flyhalf and I'd rather we have Lambie there come the 4 nations!

And lastly we missed players such as Lambie, Alberts and Frans Steyn! Hougaard was off his game once again and neither did Pienaar make a big impact when he came on!

 

[j'nuh]

George Ford will come good by the next England tour, may even put his hands up for a lions place (he's already better then Farrell, Flood, Priestland and any Scot you could name).

He'd have to sort out his placekicking in time (otherwise accommodate him with a penalty kicker in the backs eg 12T). I think Flood, Priestland and Laidlaw are better currently, but Ford may poke ahead within a year or two.

 

[TRF_heineken]

To get a draw in a dead rubber match is hardly a result... When playing for pride as what the Poms were talking about all week, they can't be too proud to go away with no win.

It was clear from the kick-off that England were in a fired up mood and the Boks were lethargic, uncomitted and with their minds clearly somewhere else.

The only guy in the bok team that played out of his skin was Wynand Olivier, probably because this might have been his last time in a Bok-jersey...

Morne Steyn both cost and saved us the game, if that makes sense. His kicking was again very poor and couldn't get the points we wanted, but that interception dive on our goal line when the Poms had an overlap certainly saved us...

All in all it was a dreadful game to watch, the poms not showing any creativity, and the big talking NZ-born hooker captain was an arrogant idiot and can be very glad that he was the only guy getting a yellow... Both teams spoiling the quick ball, not rolling away, and just play dumb rugby...

At the end of the game I felt we didn't deserve the win or the draw, and England should feel that they cost themselves the match...

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[mstar]

For me an improved performance and to me it leaves more headache for Lancaster would like.

Back to the game a couple of comments on players

Goode - looked really good at international level has game intelligence and gives us a good kicker too.

Tom Johnson - Again has looked great i think consistency wise a better then Tom croft?? the thing why i say that is that Crofty sometimes when it gets into a scrap he goes missing. Johnson seems more consistent and tackles his heart out, his work rate is immense and has good pace for a flanker.

Parling - we said so many time is he great or what? he consistently puts in more tackles then others and just a solid workhorse! maybe we shouldn't be surprised he has played for England at EVERY AGE GROUP and was always going to be a england international with the quality he has.

Haskell - great workrate put in the most tackles (i think) and gave us a great muscle in the pack.

Waldromy - i liked him showed some nerves but expected we need to see more of him, to make a solid judgement not sure if he is better or worse then morgan.

J Johnson - i feel sorry for him never been in a situation or a side this good before and was a bit missing in the game got to try him again surely?

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

If Morne Steyn would have kicked as a fly-half should do, there would be no question about our win. We were tied by the time he made that interception, but he missed 2 penalties and a conversion, that's 8 points. Heyneke Meyer cannot continue giving him the chance to get back to form while wearing the Green jersey. Let him get back to form with the Bulls! If he doesn't improve, Lambie should be the definite fly-half, no one can argue with that.

All in all this should be a lesson for Meyer. Derick Hougaard had the same issue years ago. He was replaced by Butch James who was overall better at the time. Again, the Bok matches are not for regaining form! There are several players who showed they are not up for it at the moment.

Kankowski, Morne Steyn, Olivier and van der Merwe all showed they are not Test level players. I just don't understand why Jantjies wasn't brought onto the field while he was on the bench. Just take Morne off, have Jantjies kick for goal and things would most lilely be different.

And let's not pretend like nobody knew Morne was bad. He has missed over 20 points from the kicking tee in 3 matches. That is just unacceptable.

 

[SomeOke]

Great pity about the weather, I'm not saying that as an excuse at all but seeing as I was there it did make for dull rugby (not to mention wet) .

Overall the performance from the Boks was not up to the standard that we all expect.
Our game plan relies on go forward ball from our heavy runners, accurate and effective kicking from hand and a goal kicker who can convert oppostion mistakes into points, none of which were up the the standard we expect.
I'm just not convinced we can continue to get away with a game plan which basically relies on poor defence and excellent ball retention agaisnt a lazy opposition loose trio. Since England were neither of these things the game plan just didn't pan out.

I would love to see one or two creative options in the back line, we really some players who can create something attacking which doesn't fall under the category of "bash until they open up", I'm not inherently against kicking out of hand but to work it needs to be executed perfectly something I'm not convinced Morne Steyn can offer anymore.

Anyway I haven't given up hope, it is the first three tests after all and we are still in the rebuilding phase.

 

[Peat]

Funny to see people praising Tom Johnson over the series. I thought he looked underpowered and out of place for the first two.

 

[Draggs]

Why is Peter Grant unpickable?
He isn't the best SA outside half, but he has shown that he can kick his goals, defend, and work well with JdV.
Grant isn't the future, but for a three test series, surely it is better than Steyn.

 

[TRF_heineken]

If Morne Steyn would have kicked as a fly-half should do, there would be no question about our win. We were tied by the time he made that interception, but he missed 2 penalties and a conversion, that's 8 points. Heyneke Meyer cannot continue giving him the chance to get back to form while wearing the Green jersey. Let him get back to form with the Bulls! If he doesn't improve, Lambie should be the definite fly-half, no one can argue with that.

All in all this should be a lesson for Meyer. Derick Hougaard had the same issue years ago. He was replaced by Butch James who was overall better at the time. Again, the Bok matches are not for regaining form! There are several players who showed they are not up for it at the moment.

Kankowski, Morne Steyn, Olivier and van der Merwe all showed they are not Test level players. I just don't understand why Jantjies wasn't brought onto the field while he was on the bench. Just take Morne off, have Jantjies kick for goal and things would most lilely be different.

And let's not pretend like nobody knew Morne was bad. He has missed over 20 points from the kicking tee in 3 matches. That is just unacceptable.

Heyneke said the only reason why he didn't replace Morne with Elton was because the team lacked experience at the end...

While that is understandable, it shouldn't be an excuse, Morne is out of form, and shouldn't have played to begin with...

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[Draggs]

Heyneke said the only reason why he didn't replace Morne with Elton was because the team lacked experience at the end...

While that is understandable, it shouldn't be an excuse, Morne is out of form, and shouldn't have played to begin with...

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So why name Elton on the bench then?
Meyer quickly losing support it seems, perhaps unfairly.

 

[Peat]

So why name Elton on the bench then?
Meyer quickly losing support it seems, perhaps unfairly.

Because he was hoping for a situation where SA were comfortably ahead and he could bring him on. That, or there was no one else.

 

[dasNdanger]

Just finished watching the match. For me, nothing spectacular. England was certainly on their game, and SA off. Not sure I'd blame Morne Steyn for everything - the whole team seemed a bit lazy.

They mentioned a change in coaching staff with a new kicking coach on board. Does anyone think that's affecting SA's overall kicking performance (as well as the choice at fly-half)?


das

 

[TRF_heineken]

Just finished watching the match. For me, nothing spectacular. England was certainly on their game, and SA off. Not sure I'd blame Morne Steyn for everything - the whole team seemed a bit lazy.

They mentioned a change in coaching staff with a new kicking coach on board. Does anyone think that's affecting SA's overall kicking performance (as well as the choice at fly-half)?


das

Could be, Louis Koen is the kicking coach of the Boks and, I never really rated him as a good kicker when he played for the Boks...

Throughout the whole Super 15 and now with the tests, all the kickers have missed kicks from the right side of the posts... Whether that is a mental thing, I don't know...

I'm getting a bit annoyed by everyone saying things about Pierre Spies, he made the third highest amount of tackles for the Boks with 10, but didn't miss one tackle... Wynand Olivier made 11 tackles without missing one and Marcell Coetzee made 12 and missed one. Furthermore, Spies won the most line-out balls for SA and eve stole one on opposition throw.

You guys complain that he's just a showboat and is only good when he has the ball in hand with an open space to run, now when there is none, and he plays a lot more tight, which we all know is not what he's used to, you still are not satisfied with him?? what more should this guy do??

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

For me this 'loss' highlights problems we have had from the 1st test that were glossed over because we won (although that we didn't win more convincingly should have been enough);

- Our loose forwards just aren't a unit. They don't complement each other we suffer at the breakdown because of it. We can't rely on the ref to keep the breakdown fair.
- Morne Steyn is off form and we continue backing a 50/60% goal kicker that is there because of his exceptional kicking game (in the past).

We won the first 2 tests purely on the bakc of high intensity and destructive runners. With a bit of bad weather and a measure of laziness creeping in our dominance disapeared. Welsh policed the breakdown as much as most test refs would, we have to do the rest. Steyn is not the type of 10 that can punish defenses for coming up as borderline offside as England were. I hope HM can make tough decisions. We got bossed by a team without a proper openside and I hate to imagine what Pocock, McCaw and Cane might do to us.

 

[TRF_heineken]

For me this 'loss' highlights problems we have had from the 1st test that were glossed over because we won (although that we didn't win more convincingly should have been enough);

- Our loose forwards just aren't a unit. They don't complement each other we suffer at the breakdown because of it. We can't rely on the ref to keep the breakdown fair.
- Morne Steyn is off form and we continue backing a 50/60% goal kicker that is there because of his exceptional kicking game (in the past).

We won the first 2 tests purely on the bakc of high intensity and destructive runners. With a bit of bad weather and a measure of laziness creeping in our dominance disapeared. Welsh policed the breakdown as much as most test refs would, we have to do the rest. Steyn is not the type of 10 that can punish defenses for coming up as borderline offside as England were. I hope HM can make tough decisions. We got bossed by a team without a proper openside and I hate to imagine what Pocock, McCaw and Cane might do to us.

Different game plans for different opposition, different players fitting into the mould of the game plan. for NH teams we always go about using our big forwards to smash them. for SH teams we mix it up a bit more, as the game is a bit quicker.

HM will have a couple of weeks now to reflect and to look ahead at the Rugby Championship, also hoping some guys come back from injury, and others don't get hurt...

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

And how did it work out for us? Not well IMO and I don't think I'm being unfair seeing as Aus are stuck with bigger problems than us ATM and managed to whitewash a team that are arguably the best NH side ATM.

I also wouldn't be overly confident about predicting what Meyer does if I were you as he said he'd select players based on form and that didn't pan out.

I just hope he stops selecting off form Bulls players (where the Bulls have lost a few games on the trot) as a comfortable safety blanket. He stated beforehand that he'd select players on form. Steyn is not on form and he wasn't on form going into the series.

 

[Gena_ZA]

Meyer said he will not just hand out Bok jerseys but what he did not say is he will also not just take if from his band of brothers
Morne has to cause two penalty tries and kick the ref in the nuts and then he get's his first written warning, after warning 3 he is put on a Performance Improvement Plan spanning 2 years...

Meyer needs to seriously wake up, commitment, guts, balls, glory, patriotism, pride, heroism, will and the like is good and give you that fussy feeling in your you know what, but it does not win test rugby.
Learn from the All Black that is once again showing the world that you will win with ball in hand - intelligent play > physical, one dimensional play

I wonder if some of the lads in the Baby Bok side would not have been performing better at this level that the current incumbents

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Meyer said he will not just hand out Bok jerseys but that he did not say is he will also not just take if from his band of brothers
Morne has to cause two penalty tries and kick the ref in the nuts and then he get's his first written warning, after warning 3 he is put on a Performance Improvement Plan spanning 2 years...

Meyer needs to seriously wake up, commitment, guts, balls, glory, patriotism, pride, heroism, will and the like is good and give you that fussy feeling in your balls, but it does not win test matches.
Learn from the All Black that is once again showing the world that you will win with ball in hand - intelligent play > physical, one dimensional play

I wonder if some of the lads in the Baby Bok side would not have been performing better at this level that the current incumbents

Intellegent play as you call it = varied play based on the situation.

Hougaard isn't the finished article and I get that he is a project player at 9 but then you need a 10 that can take charge and vary the game which Steyn is not. Steyn had a royal ride with an on-form FdP and HM shouldn't base his selections on an era in SA rugby he sadly missed out on (he was the man SA needed 2008-2011, can he be the man we need now is the question I'm asking). Move on FFS!