Test Match 2: All Blacks v British & Irish Lions (Wellington)

[ncurd]

I take it that you are joking.

Stop denying Itojism!

 

[Reiser99]

Stop denying Itojism!

In 1000 years they will remember that it was at this point the Church of Itoje began!

 

[The Jones Boy]

So... I've just got back from Wales. I watched the game in a charming wee town not far from Cardiff called Aberdare. I was dressed in my AB finery and asked an old timer in the street near the main road where to go to watch the rugby and he gave me directions to a pub called the Whitcombe, an excellent establishment chocka full of Welsh blokes of all ages. A relatively small and intimate bar with I kid you not, 2 big screen tv's and two medium sized tv's.
The local punters were Friendly and knowledgeable and they were good fun and good natured and they were bloody funny when they were ribbing me after the game.
More fool me, I took only AB jerseys with me for the weekend and I copped it everywhere I went. Even sheilas wanted to shake my hand and have a good laugh.
Fair play, we lost.
The Lions won.
Bragging rights to the victors.
I wish I was going to be back there next week though...

However, first up, I would like to offer a heartfelt and warm congratulations to every single Lions fan out there.
Well done.
A classic come from behind historic victory to be proud of and the series is fizzing at the bung for the return to the garden of Eden this coming Saturday.
It must have been an awesome game for the neutrals to enjoy.
I cant wait, awesome excitement, better get the blood pressure pills in now.

For the Lions, I have to say AWJ stood up, he got fired up and he gave it some in the hour he was on the park. A personal best performance on tour.
Sam Warburton lifted to another level and justified his inclusion. Another personal best performance for the tour.
To be fair though, you have to wonder how effective he and Toby Faletau would have been if Kaino had not been dragged after 20 minutes to make way for Laumape in the centres, but we will have to leave that for another week. Kaino looked well peeved when he got dragged off. I daresay he has got a few words about the incident to say to the culprit.
Watson - looked good again, took a cheap shot and came back on and played well, I like this kid, he's got guts, pace and talent.
Farrell, came into his own in the second half with his place kicking but still seems to be a bit lost in the running play.
Courtenay Lawes looked tremendous when he came on, real impact, pace, power, carrying ability, he's a class act.
Itoje struggled manfully and he came through the fire with a glorious rare win to put in his personal cabinet of triumphs.
Conor Murray capped off another solid game with a cracking try that built on the try Faletau scored when the Lions stretched the AB's defensive line to breaking point. Murphy's was the try that excited his teammates and all the Lions fans in the crowd to fever pitch. The belief came flooding back in spades and they were up for the kill.
Barrett missed a few kicks and that was telling but the 14 man All Black team squandered their lead and then coughed a penalty that I couldn't make sense of...
Now I'm not shouting sour grapes here, the ref made a call and thats it, done deal.
I have'nt seen it more than they showed it during the game but from those short viewings, I thought the ball carrier (was it Sinkler?) jumped into the air as he was carrying the ball, not collecting a kick, he just jumped, and the AB was already committed to the tackle (The bearded prop, forget his name) and Garces (who I thought had a pretty reasonable game) immediately gave a penalty for taking a man in the air.
Now... I know it's illegal to touch a bloke who is up to catch a kick, until he hits the ground, however, Sinkler? already had recieved a pass, and then jumped, (was he jumping to avoid another tackler?) Anyway, it seemed odd to cop a penalty when the runner jumped into the tackle. It seems to me (and I could well be wrong here) that if that is the rule and you jump into a tackle while running with the ball, you could win a penalty everytime. That seems very odd. I'll have a look in the refs thread and see what the boys are saying there.

All in all, a strong Lions performance and a fantastic outcome for them and the series which goes back to the Garden alive and wide open.

For my AB's, well, well, well, Silly Boy Williams, what have you done?
I'm a fan of the champion player, but that hit with no arms was a big mistake and 'the' turning point in the game. Garces had three officials with him on the ground and a TMO and big screen replays. You can't argue with it, there was no intent to wrap around with the arms.
You just can't do that anymore and expect to stay on the park with a yellow for a 10 minute break.
Too many officials, too many cameras and too much weight in favour of cleaning the game up, and I'm all for that.
SWB, you need to have a really hard look at yopurself and learn from that rush of blood to the head.

Yeah there was some other dirt in the game, notably from Mako V, and a cheap forearm smash from SOB. There was plenty of handbags especially from a fired up AWJ, thats all good for the contest.
The Lions were up for it. They had their dander up and their backs to the wall and they produced a glorious upset.
Tempers were always going to get a bit frayed at times. It was mostly harmless pushing and shoving and a bit of verbal. The boys were passionate, it's all part of the pageantry.

Back to the incident... I was gutted for the team, there was about 60 minutes to go and we were always going to be up against it from that point.
The Welsh boys around me in the pub were roaring "Game On", and it surely was...
Pouring down rain affecting the fast ball carrying and offloading game.
We were in a tight test match and no mistake.
It hurt to see Kaino go off at the 20 minute mark (he's my favourite player) because he is for my money still the stand out no.6 on the planet. When the colossus hits, he hits hard and true and legal.
He must be a nightmare to play against. A double world cup winner. Losing him meant all the ruck contests were going to be up for grabs.
Retallick had an enormous game again, he is a dynamite lock forward. Whitelock was strong but losing Kaino really upset the balance in the forwards.
The front row produced and Sam Cane disappeared in a puddle of bodies. Ardie Savea made a difference when he came on and I thought Laumape looked great in his first game as an AB.
Dagg looked pretty average, we really miss Ben Smith at fullback, he is incomparable.
Naholo looked great for 20 minutes and then became a bit of a passenger, Reiko was almost non existent.
Beauden Barrett nearly won the game on his own, if Read had collected the clever grubber through the line it would have been game over right there. What a piece of absolute magic.
He's lightning in a bottle that kid.

Warren Gatland; I have to say, he was good for the win and after SBW severely cuffed Hansen's options with his foolishness Gatland cleverly took full advantage and squeaked the result he needed, and the Lions needed.
He deserved it.
I'm frankly a bit peeved off at the NZ Herald for doing that mock up of Gatland as a clown during the week.
When did NZ think it was ok to stoop to that kind of garbage in the media?
Thats the kind of rubbish stunt I'd expect from a tabloid in London or Aussie. Thats not the Kiwi way and I was fair dinkum genuinely disappointed that they stooped to that nonsense.
It never pays to disrespect your opponent, and it's not the Kiwi way.
I hope the Lions fans are sticking it to the Herald and throwing bacon at the windows of the herald headquarters to go with the enormous egg they have on their face after their churlish jibe at Gatland backfired on them.
Poor form from the NZ Herald, they should know better and I really hope they don't engage in this kind of gutter sniping journalism again.
It's beneath us.

Congratulations again to the Lions and their legion of fans.

On to the last Hurrah and may the best team win.

 

[valley commando]

His surname is Jones, not Wyn Jones and he was imense on Saturday, I watched the game 3 times the 2nd time concentrating on watching AWJ the 3rd doing the same with Warbs. They were both back to close to their best and both will be better still when playing next week, I just think that sometimes people like sheep just follow others and non more so than sports fans. I suggest watching again before making negative comments, Vunipola was a complete idiot and Itojoe good as he was needs his over enthusiasm curbed as penalties could be the difference this weekend.

 

[Larksea]

I can understand some logic behind it. As people have said the scrum was dominant and so they could cope with a man down. The Lions were clearly playing a kicking game at the time and so they didn't need the big impact tackle as much, where as they needed to cover the backline. It was only late in the game that it changed. Also Kaino has been struggling to be 100% fit and so if they were going to have to play 80 mins a man down, you should take off the player who is likely to struggle the most by the end.

I can see some logic behind it as well. Mainly that SBW is such a key player on defense that with him missing it leaves a hole and a relatively inexperienced player (ALB) as the only midfielder. But I still think it was bad decision, with only 1/4 of the match gone they should have backed the guys on the field and given them some direction on how to cover, at least for 10min or so to see how it would play out.

The big thing is that with a man down for so long it means the players there have to work extra hard to make up for it. And as I said having 2 guys sitting on the sideline fresh unable to play any role in the game basically meant at that point not only was the on field numbers reduced to 14 but the team went from 23 to 21

I think I would have sent world down to Kaino that he would be subbed early and ask him to put a big 20min in, sub him at half time or at the 50min mark.

also consider that Laumape played on tuesday, tough ask to bring him on early.

 

[mania]

I thought I heard commentary say he failed HIA
if he actually passed that is a mistake as well. The replay showed he was actually knocked out from that hit. putting him back on would have been risking his welfare.

yeah agree. im pretty sure naholo blacked out for a second on the replay.

 

[valley commando]

a lot of teams look the better side against the all blacks for the first 20min... won by 3 points against 14 men, of course it decided the game.

Wrong

 

[The Jones Boy]

I think I would have sent world down to Kaino that he would be subbed early and ask him to put a big 20min in, sub him at half time or at the 50min mark.

That would have been the call to make.
The Lions were'nt looking to open up in the first half

 

[mania]

so ive been harping on about gatlands great coaching skills. so am i right? does he deserve the ABs helm? grahamHenry agrees with me.

also i'd just like to say that ABs should've lost this game. they shouldn't get comfortable thinking that they can win games with 14 men.
losing this series wouldn't be the end of the world. it would give the ABs a good reason to reflect and remember that we have to play precise accurate rugby to win. ABs dont have to win everything.
would also shut up (for at least 20-30 years) those who say these tours should be canned.

ABs lost but aren't losers. they showed a lot heart to only lose in the final 10 mins by 3 points whilst spending an hour or so a man down. i doubt too many other teams wouldve taken the game down to the wire against an awesome lions side.

to the lions. i have to say that this is the best lions team. these lions show team work and heart. defence is a team effort and lions defence has been immense.
i think this has a lot to do with how gatlands running this tour and he's learnt loads from the aus tour.

l'm loving this tour. stressful but loving it

 

[Reiser99]

I can see some logic behind it as well. Mainly that SBW is such a key player on defense that with him missing it leaves a hole and a relatively inexperienced player (ALB) as the only midfielder. But I still think it was bad decision, with only 1/4 of the match gone they should have backed the guys on the field and given them some direction on how to cover, at least for 10min or so to see how it would play out.

The big thing is that with a man down for so long it means the players there have to work extra hard to make up for it. And as I said having 2 guys sitting on the sideline fresh unable to play any role in the game basically meant at that point not only was the on field numbers reduced to 14 but the team went from 23 to 21

I think I would have sent world down to Kaino that he would be subbed early and ask him to put a big 20min in, sub him at half time or at the 50min mark.

also consider that Laumape played on tuesday, tough ask to bring him on early.

I think part of the problem is hindsight. Like most decisions they are judged by the result. I do think you have a point about waiting 10 minutes and seeing how they coped. Quite possibly ALB should have come on later when the Lions were tiring to create some opportunities then.

As for 2 subs not being used, imagine how frustrating Lion's fans have it. We had 4 subs not used and a 5th only on for 6 minutes. This is after a game where 5 subs weren't used and a 6th was only on for 5 minutes. Overall 11 subs not used properly over 2 games...I feel Gatland doesn't have much of a plan when it comes to subs.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

so ive been harping on about gatlands great coaching skills. so am i right? does he deserve the ABs helm?

I think every non-AB fan would absolutely love to see Gatland take the helm.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

If its dismissed the judicial committee decided it didn't warrant a red card either they are highest ruling body in the game or they are not. You can't use the fact the citing commissioner said it was as a way to get out the judicial committee decided it wasn't. That's like saying a lower court was right and higher court wasn't it just doesn't work that way.

I read the the judicial committee said that it did warrant a red but that he would not be banned.

 

[ncurd]

I read the the judicial committee said that it did warrant a red but that he would not be banned.

Everywhere I've read said it was dismissed which implies no card at all. When was the last time something warranted a straight up red but didn't get a ban of any sort?

Not the full report but this was the statement from NZ rugby.

In a statement, New Zealand Rugby said: "Having conducted a detailed review of all the evidence available, including all video footage and additional evidence from the player and submissions from his legal representative Max Duthie, the independent judicial committee comprising Adam Casselden SC (chair), David Croft and John Langford dismissed the citing complaint."

 

[Reiser99]

For me while people may disagree with the outcomes it is good that they are being looked at and discussed. You will never have 100% of fans happy, so I'd ignore that. The issue I see is that some incidents not being cited. It doesn't seem to take that long to go through the procedure if people are on the ball and personally I'd have had Mako this week and Cane last week cited. At least then you can have 3 experts make a decision without pressure.

 

[mania]

I think every non-AB fan would absolutely love to see Gatland take the helm.

Unfortunately I don't think kiwi s feel the same

 

[The Jones Boy]

What happened with the swinging forearm from Sean O' Brien?
That was caught clear as day on camera...

 

[Reiser99]

Unfortunately I don't think kiwi s feel the same

Come on, what's the worst that could happen.

 

[Reiser99]

What happened with the swinging forearm from Sean O' Brien?
That was caught clear as day on camera...

Cited but cleared.

 

[Penne Rara]

so ive been harping on about gatlands great coaching skills. so am i right? does he deserve the ABs helm? grahamHenry agrees with me.

Gatland's an excellent coach alright, but his coaching style is coated with a big fat layer of northern hemisphere rugby that I think will never suit the ABs. He's pretty unidimensional and the All Blacks are more than that. They can play an expanded brand of rugby, a tighter one, it's total rugby. But above all they would lose their soul by adopting his love for percentages and analytical coaching.

Gatty loves numbers and surrounds himself with statisticians. He knows when to kick for the corner and when to kick for goal. He knows his opposition's lineout percentages, which call they'll make and how to use structured play to try and restrain their field of possibilities. It's actually brilliant and works on numerous occasions. I can see several reasons why this wouldn't be a viable option if he becomes head coach for the All Blacks.

1. The games would become boring. That's possibly the main reason why I don't want him to be the next ABs coach.
2. The All Blacks would lose their ambition, their flair and the magic that makes them so enjoyable to watch
3. Flair is a game changer. When two analytical coaches face each other, the wittier one usually wins. Jones would easily outwit Gatty.
If you're not so clever, let your players create their own opportunities. That's what individual skills are for. Gatland obviously doesn't want to let his players express their creativity, let alone run the ball. That's a worry actually...
4. He whines and blames other people for his setbacks. While he doesn't complain as much as Cheika, this is just not the ABs way. As an All Blacks coach, he'll have to take responsibility for the losses and bear the weight of a nation (reference intended). And what a nation. Rugby's a religion for most kiwis, I don't know if he can cope with defeats and remain gracious.
5. Warrenball
6. Other reasons I haven't thought of

All this goes to show that while he may be a brilliant coach, I still prefer that he stays somewhere up north or coaches a Super Rugby team before he gets to seat on the throne. The fact that he thinks Super Rugby and the All Blacks are fairly the same is worrisome.

I'm not saying that Hansen and co don't resort to data analysis to build their training sessions but their rugby is 100% committed towards taking every opportunity on the spur of the moment during broken play. It requires guts and a special nick for support running. That's something you can't coach very easily but can actually erase from a team by asking them to forget their rugby DNA. That would be a shame.

 

[mania]

Gatland's an excellent coach alright, but his coaching style is coated with a big fat layer of northern hemisphere rugby that I think will never suit the ABs.

maybe penne.
your gameplan really shouyld be dictated by the type of players you have. warrenBall imo would evolve into something amzing if u had the ABs doing it.
also not many people agreed with hansens gameplan (me included) of running the oppn of their feet.
henry loved numbers and statistics and religously did a lot of video analysis on the oppn.
1. i dont think ABs would ever go back to boring rugby. the grantFox days are over.
2. there would still be flair. as a coach to u10's i can vouch that kids are always coming up with audacious plays
3. disagree, flair should be replaced with intelligence. gatlands intelligence with this cattle has shone thru

ps i can put up with a whiner if he's making the ABs better.