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Test Match 2: All Blacks v British & Irish Lions (Wellington)

Joe with NZ is such a scary prospect, I imagine it's be dominance similar to what he had in Leinster if not more. Would be interesting to see if him and Cotter would team up and who would be top dog with Joe surely surpassing his old boss at this stage.
 
You kind of do have a point here when I think of Steve Hansen. Hansen was a virtual unknown in NZ until all of a sudden his Welsh team started playing well.

The irony being that following mixed results, he was pretty much hounded out at the end of his tenure.
 
So... I've just got back from Wales. I watched the game in a charming wee town not far from Cardiff called Aberdare.

Haha first time I've heard Aberdare described as "charming" ! Glad you had a good time watching the game in South Wales, we do love it when NZers visit!

You kind of do have a point here when I think of Steve Hansen. Hansen was a virtual unknown in NZ until all of a sudden his Welsh team started playing well.

Ironic thing is, Hansen's tenure as Wales coach was overall not that amazing, oversaw a record 11 straight losses, which included a first ever loss to Italy in '03 (part of a wooden spoon campaign). However the showings in the '03 RWC and '04 6N arguably laid the ground work for the team that won the '05 Grandslam.

There's still a bit of debate about whether that thriller vs NZ in the '03 was a matter of him chucking lambs to the slaughter in a game where it didn't matter if we lost, or if he thought that team would produce a free flowing rugby we needed vs the All Blacks.

Probably a mixture of the two, as the largely 2nd string team played like they had nothing to lose and have said since that Hansen had put a game plan in place for them to play free flowing rugby, as last time we'd played NZ we'd tried to be conservative and got battered 55 - 3.

Stories have however emerged since that he clashed a fair bit with a number of Welsh player - notably Shane Williams, who isn't exactly known for being the type to cause trouble.

Hansen subscribed to the theory that Shane was too small, despite being one of the form players in Wales at the time. He only scraped into the '03 RWC squad as a 3rd choice Scrum Half (don't think he'd played much there for years), and spent most of the tournament as a water boy / tackle bag holder.

Apparently the two had a sweary shouting match after Shane kept tearing the 1st XV defense to shreds on the counter in a training game, as Hansen wanted him to kick the ball like he expected the Tongans too. Apparently Shane rightly (if not politely...) pointed out that if they leave gaps they were gonna run it back, which Hansen didn't appreciate!

Either way, imagine Hansen's relatively rough time with Wales definitely helped him learn plenty of lessons on how to be a World Cup winning coach!
 
Have to say when NZ first employed Hansen I did wonder what the hell they were doing because of his Wales tenure. Think it just goes to show you need the players as well as the mindset. Plus he was pretty much handed the team after Graham Henry's tenure. 2015 saw him lose more of his top-class players so it will interesting to see how NZ against top-class opposition more often (SA and Aus have been in a death spiral since the RWC). I suspect they'll show real vulnerability like Chicago or against England and not have the air of unbeatableness that they had in the last world cup cycle.
 
Posted this in the 3rd test thread, but thought it deserved a place here too. Has anyone questioned Hansen taking a forward off for a back in the match, after the SBW red card? Given the wet conditions, and the nature of the Lions game, then I'd probably considered leaving the backs short a man for the contest, and keeping parity or better up front. If anything, Hansen gave the Lions the parity they needed at scrum time, and in the loose. I reckon if he had his time back, then he''d have kept Kaino (sp?) on the park. Think it was a mistake to take a loose forward off. Certainly for a replacement who is on debut. In fact, might go so far as to say it cost his side the match.
 
So... I've just got back from Wales. I watched the game in a charming wee town not far from Cardiff called Aberdare. I was dressed in my AB finery and asked an old timer in the street near the main road where to go to watch the rugby and he gave me directions to a pub called the Whitcombe, an excellent establishment chocka full of Welsh blokes of all ages. A relatively small and intimate bar with I kid you not, 2 big screen tv's and two medium sized tv's.
The local punters were Friendly and knowledgeable and they were good fun and good natured and they were bloody funny when they were ribbing me after the game.
More fool me, I took only AB jerseys with me for the weekend and I copped it everywhere I went. Even sheilas wanted to shake my hand and have a good laugh.
Fair play, we lost.
The Lions won.
Bragging rights to the victors.
I wish I was going to be back there next week though...

However, first up, I would like to offer a heartfelt and warm congratulations to every single Lions fan out there.
Well done.
A classic come from behind historic victory to be proud of and the series is fizzing at the bung for the return to the garden of Eden this coming Saturday.
It must have been an awesome game for the neutrals to enjoy.
I cant wait, awesome excitement, better get the blood pressure pills in now.

For the Lions, I have to say AWJ stood up, he got fired up and he gave it some in the hour he was on the park. A personal best performance on tour.
Sam Warburton lifted to another level and justified his inclusion. Another personal best performance for the tour.
To be fair though, you have to wonder how effective he and Toby Faletau would have been if Kaino had not been dragged after 20 minutes to make way for Laumape in the centres, but we will have to leave that for another week. Kaino looked well peeved when he got dragged off. I daresay he has got a few words about the incident to say to the culprit.
Watson - looked good again, took a cheap shot and came back on and played well, I like this kid, he's got guts, pace and talent.
Farrell, came into his own in the second half with his place kicking but still seems to be a bit lost in the running play.
Courtenay Lawes looked tremendous when he came on, real impact, pace, power, carrying ability, he's a class act.
Itoje struggled manfully and he came through the fire with a glorious rare win to put in his personal cabinet of triumphs.
Conor Murray capped off another solid game with a cracking try that built on the try Faletau scored when the Lions stretched the AB's defensive line to breaking point. Murphy's was the try that excited his teammates and all the Lions fans in the crowd to fever pitch. The belief came flooding back in spades and they were up for the kill.
Barrett missed a few kicks and that was telling but the 14 man All Black team squandered their lead and then coughed a penalty that I couldn't make sense of...
Now I'm not shouting sour grapes here, the ref made a call and thats it, done deal.
I have'nt seen it more than they showed it during the game but from those short viewings, I thought the ball carrier (was it Sinkler?) jumped into the air as he was carrying the ball, not collecting a kick, he just jumped, and the AB was already committed to the tackle (The bearded prop, forget his name) and Garces (who I thought had a pretty reasonable game) immediately gave a penalty for taking a man in the air.
Now... I know it's illegal to touch a bloke who is up to catch a kick, until he hits the ground, however, Sinkler? already had recieved a pass, and then jumped, (was he jumping to avoid another tackler?) Anyway, it seemed odd to cop a penalty when the runner jumped into the tackle. It seems to me (and I could well be wrong here) that if that is the rule and you jump into a tackle while running with the ball, you could win a penalty everytime. That seems very odd. I'll have a look in the refs thread and see what the boys are saying there.

All in all, a strong Lions performance and a fantastic outcome for them and the series which goes back to the Garden alive and wide open.

For my AB's, well, well, well, Silly Boy Williams, what have you done?
I'm a fan of the champion player, but that hit with no arms was a big mistake and 'the' turning point in the game. Garces had three officials with him on the ground and a TMO and big screen replays. You can't argue with it, there was no intent to wrap around with the arms.
You just can't do that anymore and expect to stay on the park with a yellow for a 10 minute break.
Too many officials, too many cameras and too much weight in favour of cleaning the game up, and I'm all for that.
SWB, you need to have a really hard look at yopurself and learn from that rush of blood to the head.

Yeah there was some other dirt in the game, notably from Mako V, and a cheap forearm smash from SOB. There was plenty of handbags especially from a fired up AWJ, thats all good for the contest.
The Lions were up for it. They had their dander up and their backs to the wall and they produced a glorious upset.
Tempers were always going to get a bit frayed at times. It was mostly harmless pushing and shoving and a bit of verbal. The boys were passionate, it's all part of the pageantry.

Back to the incident... I was gutted for the team, there was about 60 minutes to go and we were always going to be up against it from that point.
The Welsh boys around me in the pub were roaring "Game On", and it surely was...
Pouring down rain affecting the fast ball carrying and offloading game.
We were in a tight test match and no mistake.
It hurt to see Kaino go off at the 20 minute mark (he's my favourite player) because he is for my money still the stand out no.6 on the planet. When the colossus hits, he hits hard and true and legal.
He must be a nightmare to play against. A double world cup winner. Losing him meant all the ruck contests were going to be up for grabs.
Retallick had an enormous game again, he is a dynamite lock forward. Whitelock was strong but losing Kaino really upset the balance in the forwards.
The front row produced and Sam Cane disappeared in a puddle of bodies. Ardie Savea made a difference when he came on and I thought Laumape looked great in his first game as an AB.
Dagg looked pretty average, we really miss Ben Smith at fullback, he is incomparable.
Naholo looked great for 20 minutes and then became a bit of a passenger, Reiko was almost non existent.
Beauden Barrett nearly won the game on his own, if Read had collected the clever grubber through the line it would have been game over right there. What a piece of absolute magic.
He's lightning in a bottle that kid.

Warren Gatland; I have to say, he was good for the win and after SBW severely cuffed Hansen's options with his foolishness Gatland cleverly took full advantage and squeaked the result he needed, and the Lions needed.
He deserved it.
I'm frankly a bit peeved off at the NZ Herald for doing that mock up of Gatland as a clown during the week.
When did NZ think it was ok to stoop to that kind of garbage in the media?
Thats the kind of rubbish stunt I'd expect from a tabloid in London or Aussie. Thats not the Kiwi way and I was fair dinkum genuinely disappointed that they stooped to that nonsense.
It never pays to disrespect your opponent, and it's not the Kiwi way.
I hope the Lions fans are sticking it to the Herald and throwing bacon at the windows of the herald headquarters to go with the enormous egg they have on their face after their churlish jibe at Gatland backfired on them.
Poor form from the NZ Herald, they should know better and I really hope they don't engage in this kind of gutter sniping journalism again.
It's beneath us.

Congratulations again to the Lions and their legion of fans.

On to the last Hurrah and may the best team win.

Well said, and I will massively agree on your point about Kaino. I think his removal meant the lions took parity from all remaining scrums and loose contests. Think it was bigger for the Lions then not having to contend with SBW for an hour.

What was the other one you said? Oh yeah - thought SOB a bit lucky to get away with the head hit on Naholo too, all things considered.

Sinckler jumped to catch a crap pass, as a result was in the air, and protected from a tackle. Its crap, but its the current law. Everyone knows it. Same would have applied for an ABs player. The rest is history, and joy for all the Welsh in that pub of yours.
 
Posted this in the 3rd test thread, but thought it deserved a place here too. Has anyone questioned Hansen taking a forward off for a back in the match, after the SBW red card? Given the wet conditions, and the nature of the Lions game, then I'd probably considered leaving the backs short a man for the contest, and keeping parity or better up front. If anything, Hansen gave the Lions the parity they needed at scrum time, and in the loose. I reckon if he had his time back, then he''d have kept Kaino (sp?) on the park. Think it was a mistake to take a loose forward off. Certainly for a replacement who is on debut. In fact, might go so far as to say it cost his side the match.

I thought it was very odd at the time but most people seem to have agreed with it.

Saw a stat on Twitter that showed losing a forward almost always correlated with a loss whereas losing a back saw quite a few wins. I don't know the context of the games though.
 
I thought it was very odd at the time but most people seem to have agreed with it.

Saw a stat on Twitter that showed losing a forward almost always correlated with a loss whereas losing a back saw quite a few wins. I don't know the context of the games though.
Well then, even more reason to leave 8 forwards on the park. Yes?

I have not coached a team, but have captained several and played at either half back or 10. My opinion was part of the selection process. In a cup final, in such circumstances, then I am not sure I'd consider leaving 8 forwards on the park, at the expense of the backs. Depends a lot on your opposition. Certainly against a Lions team I was confident to dominate in the pack, and able to manage in the backs. The Kaino change simply gave Lions parity in more areas of the park if you ask me. I think it was an error.
 
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I thought it was very odd at the time but most people seem to have agreed with it.

Saw a stat on Twitter that showed losing a forward almost always correlated with a loss whereas losing a back saw quite a few wins. I don't know the context of the games though.
Think that is the reason for the win last week. All Blacks took away a key forward to close a gap out wide. But resulted in basically forfeiting breakdown and scrum in a big way.
It means in a way the jury is still out on Lions.
 
Yeah I'd have kept Kaino and challenged the Lions to go wide. Losing him was big factor in the forwards being so knackered at the end, which led to the mistakes.
 
Well then, even more reason to leave 8 forwards on the park. Yes?

I have not coached a team, but have captained several and played at either half back or 10. My opinion was part of the selection process. In a cup final, in such circumstances, then I am not sure I'd consider leaving 8 forwards on the park, at the expense of the backs. Depends a lot on your opposition. Certainly against a Lions team I was confident to dominate in the pack, and able to manage in the backs. The Kaino change simply gave Lions parity in more areas of the park if you ask me. I think it was an error.
What do you mean 1/2 back or 10, 10 is a 1/2 back the other 1/2 being 9 or scrum 1/2, have you really played rugby or indeed ever watched a game, or is your laptop/pc completely f***ed and therefore the stuff you are trying to say comes out all wrong. I know these things can happen (frequently in my case)
 
What do you mean 1/2 back or 10, 10 is a 1/2 back the other 1/2 being 9 or scrum 1/2, have you really played rugby or indeed ever watched a game, or is your laptop/pc completely f***ed and therefore the stuff you are trying to say comes out all wrong. I know these things can happen (frequently in my case)

In new Zealand, the Half-back = scrum half (9)

First Five Eighth = Out Half (10)
 
direct contact to the head with force is a red card, intentional or not. Neither SBW or SOB's contact was "intentional" but they were both Red Card offenses.

unfortunately the fact that SBW's was picked up and SOB's wasn't pretty much decided the game.

You're comparing what SBW did to SOB? What planet are you on mate?
 
You're comparing what SBW did to SOB? What planet are you on mate?
agree. im a sbw fan but his was intentional. he lined him up and went in for the shoulder.
SOB still shoulda been penalised but he definately was going for the tackle. was just unfortunate he made contact with the head. that was unintentional.
what p!sses me off is if SBW had dropped that shoulder 15-20cm he woulda dislodged the ball and been a hero. thats the kinda of plays i expect from SBW .
 
Mako on BB was way worse than what SOB did. Mako was very lucky not to get a red which would probably have ended the series. I think the TMO was about to tell the ref to upgrade the yellow to a red but the ref either didn't hear him or ignored him.
 
Mako on BB was way worse than what SOB did. Mako was very lucky not to get a red which would probably have ended the series. I think the TMO was about to tell the ref to upgrade the yellow to a red but the ref either didn't hear him or ignored him.
I'm still confused to why the authorities cited SOB and not Mako...
 

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