Test Match 2: All Blacks v British & Irish Lions (Wellington)

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

Gatlands reliance on certain Welsh players has moved way beyond he point of healthy belief in his players to a ridiculous dependency on them to produce performances which form suggests is simply not on the cards. Not only is it potentially damaging to the prospects of this tour (if indeed there were ever any) but it's also unfair on players who are just being flogged at the end of a long season in the hope that they will eventually perform.

Just like last time, a better performance or even a win won't make these calls any more evidence based or sensible, it'll just reduce the amount people talk about it afterwards.

 

[The Jones Boy]

So gatland thought about the last game and said something was wrong in the second row obviously wont be AWJ so must be kruis...haha. why? She had an average game last week, kruise itoje is a great parnership.

A prtnership that works at club level isn\'t necessarily a partnership that will work against Retallick and Whitelock at top international level.
Club level is so far below this kind of intensity it may as well be a different game.

Kruis looked out of his depth.

Personally I would go with Itoje and Lawes as starters. Go for the mobility, athleticism and intensity.

Warburton.
What is he doing there?
Wales toured NZ a little while ago and got belted.
If SOB is fit he is a nailed on starter at 7.

Farrell has not looked himself in the test last week, He was subdued and withdrawn. Something is up. If he's not fizzing then go with Sexton. Definitely do NOT play one of them ahead of Te'o at inside centre, that would be a big mistake and gift an advantage to SBW.

Who is playing 8 for the Lions?
Is there someone to compete with Read?

Get Sinkler involved earlier so he can have more impact.

Bring on Marler to start at prop and let the mongrel come out.
It's all or nothing for another 12 years Gatland. Release the Beast.
AWJ would need to play the best game he's ever played to get a look in against the AB locks.
They are unparalleled.

Halfpenny, excellent kicker but he's so far off the pace with ball in hand he is a liability. His counter attacking is tentative, not a comforting thought against a lightning fast back three.

Watson has got to have a spot.
Liam Williams at fullback for some magic.

 

[ncurd]

Agree that AWJ and Warbs on tour form don't deserve to start, but feel Warbs has (when fit) had a great season, especially in the 6 Nations. His major issue has been coming back to match fitness from injury rather than not being on form imo. Has he shown that he's regained enough to start? Probably not. But if he turns up and plays a blinder like he did in 6N then the selection is merited. Either way, I would be much happier with a O'Mahony, Tipuric, Faletau back row personally, with either Warbs or O'Brien on the bench.

Kinda hard to argue against Davies' selection though, he's been immense towards the end of this season and on the tour. I thought he was brilliant last weekend, helped by the fact he's all of a sudden actually passing the ball when he makes breaks !

His stats stand up very well, particularly against Henshaw and JJ (Daly too, but harsh to compare as they've not played the same positions).

The only player who has better stats is Te'o (who wasn't realistically gonna start 13 anyway), but Davies has also played 100+ mins less than him, and around 60+ish less than the other two centres. Definitely merits his 13 shirt anyway!

The Davies thing is more to do with the centre I think will benefit from the Sexton/Farrell partnership and the ability to unlock the back 3. Absolutely nothing to do with form or who's been best. I just think Daly or JJ(Henshaw has gone home) will benefit greater and make better use of it. Hope the clarifies things.

 

[valley commando]

A prtnership that works at club level isn\'t necessarily a partnership that will work against Retallick and Whitelock at top international level.
Club level is so far below this kind of intensity it may as well be a different game.

Kruis looked out of his depth.

Personally I would go with Itoje and Lawes as starters. Go for the mobility, athleticism and intensity.

Warburton.
What is he doing there?
Wales toured NZ a little while ago and got belted.
If SOB is fit he is a nailed on starter at 7.

Farrell has not looked himself in the test last week, He was subdued and withdrawn. Something is up. If he's not fizzing then go with Sexton. Definitely do NOT play one of them ahead of Te'o at inside centre, that would be a big mistake and gift an advantage to SBW.

Who is playing 8 for the Lions?
Is there someone to compete with Read?

Get Sinkler involved earlier so he can have more impact.

Bring on Marler to start at prop and let the mongrel come out.
It's all or nothing for another 12 years Gatland. Release the Beast.
AWJ would need to play the best game he's ever played to get a look in against the AB locks.
They are unparalleled.

Halfpenny, excellent kicker but he's so far off the pace with ball in hand he is a liability. His counter attacking is tentative, not a comforting thought against a lightning fast back three.

Watson has got to have a spot.
Liam Williams at fullback for some magic.

Agree with most of what you say except the nailed on 7 is/should be Tipuric, for me Warburton is a 6 anyway.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

A prtnership that works at club level isn\'t necessarily a partnership that will work against Retallick and Whitelock at top international level.
Club level is so far below this kind of intensity it may as well be a different game.

Kruis looked out of his depth.

Personally I would go with Itoje and Lawes as starters. Go for the mobility, athleticism and intensity.

Krutoje was the lock pairing for England in 2016 6 nations and the tour of Australia that was head and shoulders above any other lock pairing we faced.

 

[valley commando]

Krutoje was the lock pairing for England in 2016 6 nations and the tour of Australia that was head and shoulders above any other lock pairing we faced.

How far back do you want to go ? Its about now not 18 months ago. Fact is Kruis was well below his best and well below whats needed to beat NZ, admittedly AWJ is equally as un-deserving of a place, it should have been Itojoe and Lawes with Henderson on the bench.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

The Davies thing is more to do with the centre I think will benefit from the Sexton/Farrell partnership and the ability to unlock the back 3. Absolutely nothing to do with form or who's been best. I just think Daly or JJ(Henshaw has gone home) will benefit greater and make better use of it. Hope the clarifies things.

I'd be closer to that way of thinking but at this stage anything JJ, Daly, Henshaw or even Payne could have done better in that position with Sexton and Farrell would be in no way near effective enough to do anything against NZ due to lack of practice. Davies is dangerous and might get a nice break or two with the extra space and perhaps even get a couple tries out of it but asking Sexton to play to a brand new system with minimal practice would be a mistake, we saw early in the tour and at the end of Leinster's season that he's at his worst when he's trying to force a game.

I can't see any result other than a comfortable NZ win and Sexton to be the scapegoat tbh.

To weigh in on the goalkicking, according to goalkickers.co.za who rank goal kickers based on both kicking percentage and difficulty of kicks Halfpenny comes in behind Sexton and Farrell for 2016 (They don't have 2017 yet) so even if 1/2p is in better kicking form than both of them the difference is likely minimal and not the winning or losing of a test v NZ.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I still find it weird that some people think we need Halfpenny's kicking. Farrell is the first choice kicker for the best club in Europe and the highest ranked country in the NH. It's not like he's a 50% kicker.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

How far back do you want to go ? Its about now not 18 months ago. Fact is Kruis was well below his best and well below whats needed to beat NZ, admittedly AWJ is equally as un-deserving of a place, it should have been Itojoe and Lawes with Henderson on the bench.

It was to counteract the point that he claimed it was just a club pairing when actually it has also been a very successful international pairing you stupid pillock. I did not suggest it should be used in the next game.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

It was to counteract the point that he claimed it was just a club pairing when actually it has also been a very successful international pairing you stupid pillock. I did not suggest it should be used in the next game.

Well that came out of nowhere.

 

[Gavin]

I still find it weird that some people think we need Halfpenny's kicking. Farrell is the first choice kicker for the best club in Europe and the highest ranked country in the NH. It's not like he's a 50% kicker.

Exactly my view.

Even if the arguement is for Halfpenny kicking long goals, we have Daly to some degree and anyway both Farrell and Sexton have good distance.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Well that came out of nowhere.

More the fact VC is going round making a prat of himself by disliking everything and decides to dislike and comment on something for some injustice that he just fabricated. I'm getting tired of him doing it.

 

[TheSaffycen]

I haven't been able to log on for ages, so finally I don't have to just read the comments!

This next test is going to be pretty horrible. I think Farrell at 12 for England has been brilliant, couldn't fault. But can you imagine him trying to tackle high on SBW? He's just going to get bounced off, and he's playing 12 with a new 10 and 13. Against Australia he was caught out of position a couple of times and it could happen again here. I expect to see a little inside ball from SBW if Farrell rushes up. Teo'o should've stayed.
In the pack, front row fair enough. Locks is just ridiculous, Kruis didn't play well, he doesn't deserve to start. He isn't the type to come off the bench so fair play, he's gone. But AWJ really? He shouldn't have made the tour let alone the match 23. Itoje, Lawes, Hendo and KKruis are unlucky. For what it's worth, Kruis had one bad game and got dropped, even though he looks better with his club and country partner....
POM has been dropped? Seems very harsh, and now Warburton is there. not exactly the player you want to come in with hardly any game time. Always the issue with bringing him, takes a few games to get back to his best. Faletau needs to have a big game, CJ should come on early if we can't make yards.
Back 3 delighted and Nowell means someone might come on who can change a game.
At a guess, NZ by12-15

 

[valley commando]

It was to counteract the point that he claimed it was just a club pairing when actually it has also been a very successful international pairing you stupid pillock. I did not suggest it should be used in the next game.

Watch your mouth boy

 

[valley commando]

More the fact VC is going round making a prat of himself by disliking everything and decides to dislike and comment on something for some injustice that he just fabricated. I'm getting tired of him doing it.

And I'm tired of you as well, I'll dislike what I dislike its got sod all to do with you, nothing is fabricated, get back in your box unless you have something rugby based to comment on, instead of hiding behind a button hurling personal insults around something that you and your sarcastic cronies are good at

 

[Scotty]

A prtnership that works at club level isn\'t necessarily a partnership that will work against Retallick and Whitelock at top international level.
Club level is so far below this kind of intensity it may as well be a different game.

Kruis looked out of his depth.

Personally I would go with Itoje and Lawes as starters. Go for the mobility, athleticism and intensity.

Warburton.
What is he doing there?
Wales toured NZ a little while ago and got belted.
If SOB is fit he is a nailed on starter at 7.

Farrell has not looked himself in the test last week, He was subdued and withdrawn. Something is up. If he's not fizzing then go with Sexton. Definitely do NOT play one of them ahead of Te'o at inside centre, that would be a big mistake and gift an advantage to SBW.

Who is playing 8 for the Lions?
Is there someone to compete with Read?

Get Sinkler involved earlier so he can have more impact.

Bring on Marler to start at prop and let the mongrel come out.
It's all or nothing for another 12 years Gatland. Release the Beast.
AWJ would need to play the best game he's ever played to get a look in against the AB locks.
They are unparalleled.

Halfpenny, excellent kicker but he's so far off the pace with ball in hand he is a liability. His counter attacking is tentative, not a comforting thought against a lightning fast back three.

Watson has got to have a spot.
Liam Williams at fullback for some magic.

Ok fair points about the locks and maybe itoje lawes could be good with lawes power but my point was AWJ played average last week we know itoje kruise works even at club level but my point is change it too something that wr know at works at some level. Itoje kruis itoje lawes itoje launchbury (well it should be but we got a cory hill instead....who didnt even play...gatlands an idiot and has proven when he fucks up he has no backbone to stick by what hes done.)

Warbs.....no just no.
Faz off pace,sexton off pace.
sonny bill williams will destroy faz pains me to say. But oh well

Side point wales lacked attacking flare in the six nations and who do we choose as lions coach...gatland...who do we choose as attack coach...wales attack coach...howley or who ever it is. Just why...

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

And I'm tired of you as well, I'll dislike what I dislike its got sod all to do with you, nothing is fabricated, get back in your box unless you have something rugby based to comment on, instead of hiding behind a button hurling personal insults around something that you and your sarcastic cronies are good at

Did I say they should be the test team? NO. Did I simply say they had been successful at international level? YES. So that means if you didn't fabricate anything, you dislike the fact that I dare mention Itoje and Kruis have worked together at international level with success. In other words, you have a MASSIVE chip on your shoulder.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Did I say they should be the test team? NO. Did I simply say they had been successful at international level? YES. So that means if you didn't fabricate anything, you dislike the fact that I dare mention Itoje and Kruis have worked together at international level with success. Well done.

Haha, if you want to compile more dislikes they're available by not admitting Jonathan Davies is the best 13 in world rugby, rating two or more NH out halves better than Dan Biggar, picking a Lions team with Wales having 3rd highest representation and most recently offering statistical evidence that Halfpenny isn't a better kicker than Farrell or Sexton. I'm a bit of a master at this attracting dislikes gig and have also found success by calling out dirty play from New Zealand and simply asking for them, if you want to learn more I'm always happy to help!

 

[ncurd]

Haha, if you want to compile more dislikes they're available by not admitting Jonathan Davies is the best 13 in world rugby,

I've been pinged for this one twice today....we need VC bingo for the 6 nations to see who can amass the dislikes the quickest.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Question for the Lions supporters:

Would you feel that Gatland's selections were vindicated if the Lions won? What about if they get close?