Test Match 2: All Blacks v British & Irish Lions (Wellington)

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Question for the Lions supporters:

Would you feel that Gatland's selections were vindicated if the Lions won? What about if they get close?

If he wins then of course he will be vindicated.

But not if he loses. (Even if he loses by the tiniest of margins).


OT but personally i think the lions need to start considering sticking to touring just SA and Aus and i think they need to scrap the mid-week games maybe have 3 warm up games before the test and tour with a more compact squad.

 

[Bluemoon]

Question for the Lions supporters:

Would you feel that Gatland's selections were vindicated if the Lions won? What about if they get close?

Depends on the context. If they got close, but SBW runs through Farrell and AWJ to score the winner then no haha.

I still feel the backline should have remained the same. It's the pack that were beaten in the last game. Warbs is a class act when he is at 6 and fit, and I think he will step up, as annoying as it may be for POM. Plus it's hard to know what these decisions have been based on in the coaching room.

I think the Te-o and AWJ decisions will be the clangers in the long run.

 

[munstermuffin]

Question for the Lions supporters:

Would you feel that Gatland's selections were vindicated if the Lions won? What about if they get close?

No. Regardless of result the last 2 tours have resulted in him destroying everything fun about Lions. From coach selections to attitude and sneakyness to team bias. As I said earlier he beat worst Aus team in my living memory and just about did that and even then tried to be bias. Results don't make up for wrongful actions and he has a history of this crap

 

[munstermuffin]

Depends on the context. If they got close, but SBW runs through Farrell and AWJ to score the winner then no haha.

I still feel the backline should have remained the same. It's the pack that were beaten in the last game. Warbs is a class act when he is at 6 and fit, and I think he will step up, as annoying as it may be for POM. Plus it's hard to know what these decisions have been based on in the coaching room.

I think the Te-o and AWJ decisions will be the clangers in the long run.

Warbs may have a stormer but certainly didn't merit getting selected. Its a disgrace that a man can walk in to a test team with no form fitness or merit. It's not about POM going it's more fact he is behind CJ Tips Henderson Lawes Haskell and Itoje in my eyes but brown nosing got him in. He was the yes guy for WRU when national contract stuff was going on. That is the harsh but true reality

 

[The Jones Boy]

Krutoje was the lock pairing for England in 2016 6 nations and the tour of Australia that was head and shoulders above any other lock pairing we faced.

Yep, I get that and I don't mean any disrespect when I say, they didn't face the All Blacks.
Historically we have struggled to produce two great locks at the same time, and now we have it's making our tight five a force to be reckoned with.
Botha and Matfield were the last great lock pairing, now it's the incumbent AB's
I'm a fan of the young Itoje, and I really like Lawes, I have thought highly of Lawes for some time, he puts himself about and for a big big man he has a lot athleticism and some handy aggression.
Kruis, to be fair, I haven't seen enough of , all I can go on is his performance last week and he was a passenger for the most part.
I'm not saying he's a bad player, but you just can't afford to have another low intensity display like that when it's a one off chance to even the series, and no other chance will appear for 12 years against the same opposition.
The Lions are playing the All Blacks.
World Champions.
Back to back world champions.
They are playing at home, where they are most comfortable.
The Lions need to bring unbridled pace and barely bridled physicality and aggression in their forward pack, right through from 1 to 8.
They need to sustain that pressure for a full 80 minutes and never let up because the AB's will be targetting this game to close out the series and they have plenty of weapons, even with three key injuries.
Ok it's not life or death but with the Americas Cup now in the bag, it's the next biggest thing.
If the All Blacks lose this series, you can stone cold guarantee that the Conservative incumbent govt will be kicked out at the next election. Just because...
Thats how big a deal the Lions tour is, so Gatland needs to wake up and realise he desperately needs more mongrel on the park, and more pace, and fire, and attack at the breakdown.
The AB's are still a bit rusty at this time of the year but they will have blown out some cobwebs last week and be gearing up for a more 'efficient ' performance this week.
The bar doesn't get lower.
The tight 5 for the Lions must at the very least get parity across the specrtrum of set pieces and play in the loose and the breakdown. That has to be their starting point. More than that would be handy because the AB's can create mayhem off scraps.
This is not a Super rugby team, this is a devilishly talented, high intensity rugby unit designed for scoring points and defending like rabid dogs.
The Lions have to be prepared to put it all on the line and empty the tank.
Gatland needs his best fighters in the trenches, not choices out of sentimentality.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Question for the Lions supporters:

Would you feel that Gatland's selections were vindicated if the Lions won? What about if they get close?

It's a similar situation to his picking the all Welsh midfield in Australia. You see people saying "Everyone who was complaining about that is an idiot cause we won" but all the complaints were 100% valid.
If we won this time then I'd be over the moon, but it still doesn't change my opinion that AWJ and Warburton shouldn't be starting, because all the evidence at the time of selection says that they shouldn't.

 

[TopTen2003]

The more I look at this there can only be two possible ways of analysing Gatland:

1) he thinks the heavens might open on Saturday and has picked the kicking game to manage territory and simply look to put the Lions in the right areas.

2) he has quite literally overthought the game plan which has in turn overruled form. (I.e what Clive Woodward did 13 years ago). (Last weeks captain out of this weeks test 23 does suggest some contrasting thinking has been going on!)

For me there are a couple of areas that stand out as a NH weakness compared to the standard setting All Blacks:

NZ have absolute world class, balanced all rounders who play at inside centre (12) and all across the the back row (Kieran Read last week was the best No.8 performance I've seen since the Lawrence Dallaglio peak days).

Momentum and go forward over gain line followed by an efficient powerhouse of a back row to recycle super quick ball.

It's a simple game when played right.

 

[Ground We Won]

Gatland's demeanour, attitude, selections and tactics have all been pretty average to just down right bad. He's been a huge disappointment so far. Hopefully, he can redeem himself in the final tests, because he's a compatriot and I want him to do well but, I think he's really let himself and the Lions down.

 

[anderton46]

Gatland's demeanour, attitude, selections and tactics have all been pretty average to just down right bad. He's been a huge disappointment so far. Hopefully, he can redeem himself in the final tests, because he's a compatriot and I want him to do well but, I think he's really let himself and the Lions down.

What would you do differently in the selections/tactics?

I think most people seemed to agree that, bar 1/2 (launchbury?) the squad was good.

Then game the 1st test, and most people were relatively surprised and pleased he'd opted for a bit of attacking flair with Williams and the english wingers (and dropped north and halfpenny). He also dropped the tour captain Warburton and the only real issue for most people was AWJ. Going into the second test he's tried something different. Granted there are other options too, but changes had to be made, that team wasn't beating the AB's.

Tactics wise, yes I'm sure we'd love an open game, however its a team that has spent a few weeks together against the best team in the world. It's a tall order.

 

[Nubiwan]

I still find it weird that some people think we need Halfpenny's kicking. Farrell is the first choice kicker for the best club in Europe and the highest ranked country in the NH. It's not like he's a 50% kicker.

Yes, but he needs to don head gear and shrink about 6 inches.

 

[Nubiwan]

More the fact VC is going round making a prat of himself by disliking everything and decides to dislike and comment on something for some injustice that he just fabricated. I'm getting tired of him doing it.

I have a dozen dislikes to my credit. All from VC. There is no better vindication for my posts. More negs please.

 

[Nubiwan]

Question for the Lions supporters:

Would you feel that Gatland's selections were vindicated if the Lions won? What about if they get close?

I would. I'd tell everyone I got it all wrong, and AWJ and Warburton proved me wrong. I want them to be great. I want the Lions to annihilate the All Blacks. Or just win by a point. Even a respectable defeat. On form, I just dont see it. I reckon that is why I am so annoyed they are both playing, when others are more deserving.

 

[Nubiwan]

Gatland's demeanour, attitude, selections and tactics have all been pretty average to just down right bad. He's been a huge disappointment so far. Hopefully, he can redeem himself in the final tests, because he's a compatriot and I want him to do well but, I think he's really let himself and the Lions down.

Selection for the first test rather surprised me. Mainly because Warburton didn't start, and 1/2 pint was on the bench. I was happy with the starting 15, but Itoje should have got the shout over AWJ. That is just too clear. People say Kruis had a bad test, but perhaps it was the tired old Welshman he was partnered with that didn't click. If you are looking for combinations, then the English Locks are pretty solid and have been on tour. They have dominated line outs possession, and managed a few steals. I might just have have made that lock change for the 2nd test. Brought up some better impact players to the bench. Nowel, Joseph, Tipuric. Henderson etc . Better form players than those we introduced in the first test, with zero impact at all, If I may say so.

I would never have dropped Te'o from the 15. Sexton or Farrell at 10 is a toss up, but I prefer Farrell. Warburton and AWJ would not make my 23. They are clearly favoured over form when selected. Hope it works out for Gatland. We are seeing players show well in midweek games not even getting a sniff, while these two seem to be the first names on the test side. Its clearly leaving a sour taste with many Lions fans.

 

[Nubiwan]

What would you do differently in the selections/tactics?

I think most people seemed to agree that, bar 1/2 (launchbury?) the squad was good.

Then game the 1st test, and most people were relatively surprised and pleased he'd opted for a bit of attacking flair with Williams and the english wingers (and dropped north and halfpenny). He also dropped the tour captain Warburton and the only real issue for most people was AWJ. Going into the second test he's tried something different. Granted there are other options too, but changes had to be made, that team wasn't beating the AB's.

Tactics wise, yes I'm sure we'd love an open game, however its a team that has spent a few weeks together against the best team in the world. It's a tall order.

No point in wholesale changes IMHO. The team that started the first test was just about our best line up available, with the exception of AWJ. We needed better impact players on the bench than Warburton, AWJ and 1/2 pint. They were just a waste of shirt. How 2 of them 3 got on the 2nd test side is frankly a disgrace. They must feel it personally. Players know when they are not performing. Warburtons had a shocker of a tour. It all comes down to Saturday for him to prove himself.

Personally sick of taking about it at this point. Decent chance the Lions wont win regardless of who gets selected, but there have simply been more deserving players than AWJ and Warburton. Stander did more in one of his matches than Warbuton has done the whole frigging tour. The lads put his body on the line. Tipuric. Same thing. I cant recall a contribution from Warburton other than flopping over for a try in one match. Cronyism is alive and kicking in the Lions camp. Sorry, but its made me bitter.

 

[Every Time Ref]

I think if we win tomorrow the selection will be vindicated (short of like 5 injuries to key ABs or something). Even if we go down to the wire and end up losing a tight one I'll be eating some humble pie because honestly I'm expecting a bit of a mauling. But you know what, we were never expecting to go toe to toe with the ABs, and we were never expecting Gatland to showcase an exciting, creative game plan (or not favour Welsh players). Gatland has played entirely to form, unless the outcomes of the next two tests are significantly worse than the first then he hasn't particularly damaged his reputation purely as a coach IMO.

Calling up players who don't deserve to be there is another story though. It's a ******* disgrace. That couldn't have been vindicated by a 3-0 series win in my eyes.

 

[Bluemoon]

I think if we win tomorrow the selection will be vindicated (short of like 5 injuries to key ABs or something). Even if we go down to the wire and end up losing a tight one I'll be eating some humble pie because honestly I'm expecting a bit of a mauling. But you know what, we were never expecting to go toe to toe with the ABs, and we were never expecting Gatland to showcase an exciting, creative game plan (or not favour Welsh players). Gatland has played entirely to form, unless the outcomes of the next two tests are significantly worse than the first then he hasn't particularly damaged his reputation purely as a coach IMO.

Calling up players who don't deserve to be there is another story though. It's a ******* disgrace. That couldn't have been vindicated by a 3-0 series win in my eyes.

Do you think Warren has stuck to warrenball? If anything I think the approach hasn't been what I was expecting it to be at times. The selection of the wings and fullback have been surprising. As was brining in POM in the first place. If he was really Wales centric Warbs would have started that first test I think. Regardless of that even, you'd have to say the style wasn't exactly what we expected so far.

I think Warren is getting a lot of flak because of the the players he's called up as cover. A crazy move and he's rightly getting some heat for it. But there's some things he's tried to do differently, albeit against the best team in the world. I'm not a fan of Warren just to add, particularly for Wales. And I don't agree with some of his tactical decisions across the team.

 

[Reiser99]

Question for the Lions supporters:

Would you feel that Gatland's selections were vindicated if the Lions won? What about if they get close?

If they did win then yes. It would be a case of the coach clearly knows more than fans. However I can't see it happening and if the Lions do lose there will be a huge list of faults where Gatland went wrong.

For me while other decisions are debatable, I haven't seen a single person other than Gat's himself defend the AWJ decision. For me this sums up what I've been saying. His form and fitness are not what they used to be and he's being picked on past glories. If AWJ has a motm performance and the Lions win then fair enough, but nothing less will convince me that Kruis or Henderson should be in the 23 instead.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

To a degree I think any coach would be loyal to who they know. In my view Gatland has made some mistakes, but equally he's there inside camp day in, day out and we're.....not.

Might, say, Jones have done a better job? Possibly. But realistically show me one coach who'd you'd expect to do materially better in pulling together a scratch team to tackle the undisputed best in the world on their own patch....at the end of a 10 month season.

My take might be different if I thought some of his decisions had cost us a series against a beatable SA or Aus. But in this case I can't get too wound up about it all.

 

[valley commando]

I have a dozen dislikes to my credit. All from VC. There is no better vindication for my posts. More negs please.

This site is to discuss rugby not other posters, you and Rangechanger need to keep your snide self righteous comments to yourself, if I don't like what you say then I will neg it, its no coincidence that you get so many negs off me when you spout so much shite.
If you check you'll see I give out plenty of likes as well, some even go to you.

 

[KeyboardWorrier]

100-0 tomorrow?