Test Match 2: All Blacks v British & Irish Lions (Wellington)

[valley commando]

I was joking when I said Warbs and AWJ would start....Gatland will never cease to amaze me in sheer insistence to make this the Welsh Lions plus some others. Neither deserve starting spots and it's a disgrace no matter the result on Saturday. Same as 4 years ago.

The crying shame is we are slowly seeing the backline we need to win. Well done Gats it's only taken you how many games to start it? I and others have been calling for it for ages. I'm not keen on Davies at center I'd rather see Henshaw/Daly/JJ there bit I can live with it.

Ah well at least it will be next year before we inflict Kutoje on the ABs and it'll be more of a surprise to them as a full unit. If we are lucky it will be Kutojepola.

You start your post well agree with you re AWJ, but go and get your bonce checked if you think anyone other than Fox should be the 13. For anyone to suggest a otherwise is shear Lunacy and extreme anti Welsh bias, Fox has without question been the best back on this tour.

 

[Caitlyn Jenner]

Fox has without question been the best back on this tour.

Actually I think many would question that.

 

[valley commando]

I was joking when I said Warbs and AWJ would start....Gatland will never cease to amaze me in sheer insistence to make this the Welsh Lions plus some others. Neither deserve starting spots and it's a disgrace no matter the result on Saturday. Same as 4 years ago.

The crying shame is we are slowly seeing the backline we need to win. Well done Gats it's only taken you how many games to start it? I and others have been calling for it for ages. I'm not keen on Davies at center I'd rather see Henshaw/Daly/JJ there bit I can live with it.

Ah well at least it will be next year before we inflict Kutoje on the ABs and it'll be more of a surprise to them as a full unit. If we are lucky it will be Kutojepola.

You start your post well agree with you re AWJ, but go and get your bonce checked if you think anyone other than Fox should be the 13. For anyone to suggest a otherwise is shear Lunacy and extreme anti Welsh bias, Fox has without question been the best back on this tour.

So you're picking a winger on the basis that he's a good goal-kicker... LOL! That's dumb, even for you. Sexton and Farrell are far from average goal-kickers... they're actually very good. Certainly better than the ABs goal-kicker, who is possibly the worst of all tier 1 international teams. And yet, the ABs are the best team in the world... why is that? Because they can score tries.
You need your wingers to be guys who can finish, or at least make meters and beat a man. That's what they're there for, and that's what would give you the best chance at challenging the ABs. Sacrificing that for a dull winger who might get the odd extra shot at goal is just dumb. Not worth it. You lose so much more than you gain.

*waits for the customary triggered VC dislike*

It would appear that you are the dull one (use of the word dull as used in valleys) Farrell and Sexton have played know better than 1/2p this tour and have kicked a lot worse than him,and yes I dislike your observations.

 

[valley commando]

Actually I think many would question that.

Many what ? - mental patients or complete idiots

 

[munstermuffin]

Agreed Lawes and Itojoe should be starting with Henderson on the bench. Am hopeful that Warbs is fully fit and firing on Sat, but would prefer him at 6 with Tips at 7.
Tips is the unluckiest player on the planet where as AWJ must be the luckiest, I also see Farrell as extremely lucky to be in the 23 but hey ho Daddys a coach.

If our lineout goes bad though I just hope Warburton is hung out in same manner. I'm not to fussed either way as regardless of result Gatland has killed the Lions as it once was.

 

[Scotty]

So gatland thought about the last game and said something was wrong in the second row obviously wont be AWJ so must be kruis...haha. why? She had an average game last week, kruise itoje is a great parnership. Just dont see why AWJ didnt play tues and kruise this weekend

Warburton. Hope he slows the ball because he isnt the best player

Sexton faz combo. Rate faz over sexton at 10 but either way faz at 12 v SBW...offload will be got every time and always be on the back foot against him. I cant see it being that big of an improvment in atack really.

Not confident tbh but i can hope

 

[Nubiwan]

*waits for the customary triggered VC dislike*

Beauty!

 

[ALJ]

You start your post well agree with you re AWJ, but go and get your bonce checked if you think anyone other than Fox should be the 13. For anyone to suggest a otherwise is shear Lunacy and extreme anti Welsh bias

Can you not see the hypocrisy in what you're saying?

You claim 'extreme anti-Welsh bias' yet AWJ aside (and let's face it, nobody can justify his inclusion), all the players you're advocating are Welsh (Warburton, Tips, Biggar, JD, Halfpenny).
You then accuse the coaches of nepotism in picking Farrell.

So whenever a pick does not align with your personal preferences, it's bias or something worse.

You might have some decent ideas regarding selection but it's apparent that your thinking is driven by your own national bias, leaving It looking like when you reach the right answer, it's for the wrong reason.
For example, I think plenty would agree that Tipuric deserves his chance based on his form but Warburton over SOB or POM based on form? Really?

 

[Thingimubob]

I was joking when I said Warbs and AWJ would start....Gatland will never cease to amaze me in sheer insistence to make this the Welsh Lions plus some others. Neither deserve starting spots and it's a disgrace no matter the result on Saturday. Same as 4 years ago.

The crying shame is we are slowly seeing the backline we need to win. Well done Gats it's only taken you how many games to start it? I and others have been calling for it for ages. I'm not keen on Davies at center I'd rather see Henshaw/Daly/JJ there bit I can live with it.

Ah well at least it will be next year before we inflict Kutoje on the ABs and it'll be more of a surprise to them as a full unit. If we are lucky it will be Kutojepola.

Agree that AWJ and Warbs on tour form don't deserve to start, but feel Warbs has (when fit) had a great season, especially in the 6 Nations. His major issue has been coming back to match fitness from injury rather than not being on form imo. Has he shown that he's regained enough to start? Probably not. But if he turns up and plays a blinder like he did in 6N then the selection is merited. Either way, I would be much happier with a O'Mahony, Tipuric, Faletau back row personally, with either Warbs or O'Brien on the bench.

Kinda hard to argue against Davies' selection though, he's been immense towards the end of this season and on the tour. I thought he was brilliant last weekend, helped by the fact he's all of a sudden actually passing the ball when he makes breaks !

His stats stand up very well, particularly against Henshaw and JJ (Daly too, but harsh to compare as they've not played the same positions).

The only player who has better stats is Te'o (who wasn't realistically gonna start 13 anyway), but Davies has also played 100+ mins less than him, and around 60+ish less than the other two centres. Definitely merits his 13 shirt anyway!

 

[anderton46]

Can you not see the hypocrisy in what you're saying?

You claim 'extreme anti-Welsh bias' yet AWJ aside (and let's face it, nobody can justify his inclusion), all the players you're advocating are Welsh (Warburton, Tips, Biggar, JD, Halfpenny).
You then accuse the coaches of nepotism in picking Farrell.

So whenever a pick does not align with your personal preferences, it's bias or something worse.

You might have some decent ideas regarding selection but it's apparent that your thinking is driven by your own national bias, leaving It looking like when you reach the right answer, it's for the wrong reason.
For example, I think plenty would agree that Tipuric deserves his chance based on his form but Warburton over SOB or POM based on form? Really?

While what you say may be true...

 

[Nubiwan]

Think it is fair to say that Felatau and Te'o have been pretty much consistent standouts in the test side on tour, but both were reasonably silenced in the test match. Nothing against them, just that the competition is that much better. I'd still be playing both of them in the 2nd test. Same for Kruis, who rather had a poor test game, but has been in very good form. AWJ should be nowhere near the park, yet Kruis takes the apparent first test fall. Just stinks of cronyism. As for Warburton - see AWJ.

Form is just a 4 letter word for some on tour. Hate to belabour the point, but plenty of players more worthy of test shots on form, than the two Welsh forward walk ons. Thing is, other than being Gatlands best mates, neither has done a tap on this tour to warrant selection to the 2nd test. I want the Lions to bloody win, not show up and make up the numbers.

 

[Thingimubob]

Think it is fair to say that Felatau and Te'o have been pretty much consistent standouts in the test side on tour, but both were reasonably silenced in the test match. Nothing against them, just that the competition is that much better. I'd still be playing both of them in the 2nd test. Same for Kruis, who rather had a poor test game, but has been in very good form. AWJ should be nowhere near the park, yet Kruis takes the apparent first test fall. Just stinks of cronyism. As for Warburton - see AWJ.

Form is just a 4 letter word for some on tour. Hate to belabour the point, but plenty of players more worthy of test shots on form, than the two Welsh forward walk ons.

Kruis was poor by his standards last week, so I'm not completely shocked he was dropped, however I'm surprised he's been dropped and AWJ hasn't. Itoje, Lawes and Henderson (had Gatland actually justified creating the ridiculous call up controversy and used his subs on Tuesday to keep him fresh anyway) would've been my test locks for this one.

 

[munstermuffin]

Think it is fair to say that Felatau and Te'o have been pretty much consistent standouts in the test side on tour, but both were reasonably silenced in the test match. Nothing against them, just that the competition is that much better. I'd still be playing both of them in the 2nd test. Same for Kruis, who rather had a poor test game, but has been in very good form. AWJ should be nowhere near the park, yet Kruis takes the apparent first test fall. Just stinks of cronyism. As for Warburton - see AWJ.

Form is just a 4 letter word for some on tour. Hate to belabour the point, but plenty of players more worthy of test shots on form, than the two Welsh forward walk ons. Thing is, other than being Gatlands best mates, neither has done a tap on this tour to warrant selection to the 2nd test. I want the Lions to bloody win, not show up and make up the numbers.

I'd argue Te'o had great 1st test. He went toe to toe with SBW and did superb. Issue is more balancing what you want more a defensive solid 12 or an offensive 12. You sacrifice 1 area for the other.

 

[anderton46]

I'd argue Te'o had great 1st test. He went toe to toe with SBW and did superb. Issue is more balancing what you want more a defensive solid 12 or an offensive 12. You sacrifice 1 area for the other.

Whereas we have to sacrifice one for the other, most Kiwis have the whole package, which is the main difference.

 

[Nubiwan]

Kruis was poor by his standards last week, so I'm not completely shocked he was dropped, however I'm surprised he's been dropped and AWJ hasn't. Itoje, Lawes and Henderson (had Gatland actually justified creating the ridiculous call up controversy and used his subs on Tuesday to keep him fresh anyway) would've been my test locks for this one.

Agree mate. Not sure you get UK commentary where you live, but I get the NZ boys here, where I live. To a man they were agreed that by about the 20 minute mark, AWJ was out on his feet and "sucking the big ones". Itoje should have started, and we can do no worse than partnering him with either of Lawes, Henderson, or Kruis in the 2nd test. Difficult for any player to go finding form against the All Blacks and have a meaningful outing, so perhaps not fair to put Warburton in that situation. Certainly when others have contributed more than him on tour.

 

[Nubiwan]

I'd argue Te'o had great 1st test. He went toe to toe with SBW and did superb. Issue is more balancing what you want more a defensive solid 12 or an offensive 12. You sacrifice 1 area for the other.

I agree. My point was Te'o just was not as noticeable with ball in hand as he has been in previous tour games. Credit the better opposition for that. If you are playing the ABs. then I say you pick solid defenders first, and take your chances with other players creating something. Thought it was a mistake changing Farrell to centre in the test (and I like Farrell), when Te'o has been close to one of the players of the tour in fairness. Very solid. Himself and Felatau. SOB and Omahoney too. Farrell will prove too small for the task is my worry, not that he isn't a good defender nor runner. I just prefer him as a 10. Te'o did not deserve to be dropped at all.

 

[Thingimubob]

Agree mate. Not sure you get UK commentary where you live, but I get the NZ boys here, where I live. To a man they were agreed that by about the 20 minute mark, AWJ was out on his feet and "sucking the big ones". Itoje should have started, and we can do no worse than partnering him with either of Lawes, Henderson, or Kruis in the 2nd test. Difficult for any player to go finding form against the All Blacks and have a meaningful outing, so perhaps not fair to put Warburton in that situation. Certainly when others have contributed more than him on tour.

Unfortunately UK... Would must rather the NZ guys than having to put up with Barnes and Co... Genuinely was tempted to mute the TV and whack on the Welsh language radio instead.

I kinda understood the selection pre match - the whole "Warriors to start, Athletes to finish thing", but as much as I love AWJ he looked knackered in that test - even if I don't think he was as awful as some people are making out, he still looked like he was blowing pretty early on. Odd for him considering he's always been a fantastic fitness wise for Wales.

 

[NDC89]

I agree. My point was Te'o just was not as noticeable with ball in hand as he has been in previous tour games. Credit the better opposition for that. If you are playing the ABs. then I say you pick solid defenders first, and take your chances with other players creating something. Thought it was a mistake changing Farrell to centre in the test (and I like Farrell), when Te'o has been close to one of the players of the tour in fairness. Very solid. Himself and Felatau. SOB and Omahoney too. Farrell will prove too small for the task is my worry, not that he isn't a good defender nor runner. I just prefer him as a 10. Te'o did not deserve to be dropped at all.

I'm actually more worried about the lack of threat he offers in attack than his defence. Bless him, but he is not quick... Nor is he steppy or particuarly strong. The ABs won;t have to work very hard to take away any attacking threat he poses. He kind of gets away with it for England as he has Ford and Joseph around him, both creative players and both quick.

 

[Mumbles119]

So you're picking a winger on the basis that he's a good goal-kicker... LOL! That's dumb, even for you. Sexton and Farrell are far from average goal-kickers... they're actually very good. Certainly better than the ABs goal-kicker, who is possibly the worst of all tier 1 international teams. And yet, the ABs are the best team in the world... why is that? Because they can score tries.
You need your wingers to be guys who can finish, or at least make meters and beat a man. That's what they're there for, and that's what would give you the best chance at challenging the ABs. Sacrificing that for a dull winger who might get the odd extra shot at goal is just dumb. Not worth it. You lose so much more than you gain.

*waits for the customary triggered VC dislike*

This, so much this.

Although I am beginning to think this way of thinking is just TRF group think, because so many others in the outside TRF world repeat the same mantra of needing the kicker on the pitch. But I will stand up to uninitiated great unclean of the real world , tell myself I am right, and preach the word...

Picking a kicker just for kicking will mean you lose to the ABs, you only beat the Abs by scoring tries. I think someone earlier highlighted two particular excellent examples of NZ turning down the three points, and scoring each time. 14 points is a lot more than 6!

 

[Reiser99]

Right just got home from work time to hit the forums.

ALUN WYN ******* JONES!!! Sorry but only the most biased Welsh fan would even attempt to justify the decision and even then know they are lying through their teeth.

As for the rest it will be interesting to see if Warburton has an affect on the breakdown. I doubt it based on form and O'Mahony should feel extremely hard done by. Farrell at 12 didn't seem to work last week, but might be better from the start with Te'o fresh at the end. Nowell for 1/2P makes sense. Lawes will come on with an impact, though Henderson and Kruis should be furious.