[2025 Six Nations] England vs Italy - 9/3/25

[Jimbo]

Saints fan here, while Freeman does pop up, we actually pass the ball into space at depth so we can use our backs. It doesn't need to be about them looking for work of every one else is doing their job.

England on the other hand can't get the ball from sh, fh to centres to wing. So while we can blame the wingers for not looking for work, I'd like our backs to actually do their jobs.

Agreed I wasn't suggesting it was in anyway Freeman's fault, just that not only do saints use their wingers but they tend to maximise their involvement by coming in off their wing in centre channels and close to rucks, neither of which appears to be allowed in the England setup. Even someone like DP would look pretty anonymous in the England setup.

 

[Reiser99]

So with Ireland losing England are still in it. Realistically they need BP wins against both Italy and Wales and then hope Scotland upset France.

Definitely need 2 BP wins because Ireland will get a BP next week to finish on 19pts and they have a much better points difference. It's a faint hope though as scoring another 8 tries seems unlikely right now. Still, if they want to prove everyone wrong they need to take the opportunity to at least come 2nd.

 

[BrokenWing]

then hope Scotland upset France.

So does that mean Townsend is more likely to get the sack if they beat France or lose to France?

 

[Jimbo]

So with Ireland losing England are still in it. Realistically they need BP wins against both Italy and Wales and then hope Scotland upset France.

Definitely need 2 BP wins because Ireland will get a BP next week to finish on 19pts and they have a much better points difference. It's a faint hope though as scoring another 8 tries seems unlikely right now. Still, if they want to prove everyone wrong they need to take the opportunity to at least come 2nd.

In all honesty though lets assume for a minute the unlikely does happen and England did win it, what does that do going forward? Sure the ***le would be lovely and all that but two gained in the manner it would be does little but paper over some rather deep cracks and does nothing for England going forward.

 

[Reiser99]

Tbh the biggest focus should be on stopping Wales getting anymore bonus points next week.

 

[Grizwald]

Don't mind the England team, of what's available in the squad. If Borthwick and Co want another play maker at 15 why not give Carpenter a run knowing Furbank was out. Feel a bit sorry for MS he was operating in Farrell shadow for a time and doesn't really feel he's ever really being handed the reins. For what it's worth I don't think his game suits the tactics or perhaps even international rugby.

I don't mind Daly as a 23 he's experienced and versatile but isn't the future to be handing him a start at FB.

Hill and CCS feel too similar to have them both on the bench. I think both can step into the second row in a pinch but Hill probably isn't there if Martin is fit. Isn't Coles fit now? He's a more experienced lock who often plays 6.

England need a performance, the Scottish win was so abject performance. Carlings comments thus week about the coaches sound right to me tbh.

 

[BPM]

In all honesty though lets assume for a minute the unlikely does happen and England did win it, what does that do going forward? Sure the ***le would be lovely and all that but two gained in the manner it would be does little but paper over some rather deep cracks and does nothing for England going forward.

I never understand people who support England wanting us to lose … however, when winning papers over cracks the size of fault lines, winning can be unhelpful. A fluke ***le would be a totally false indicator of where we are as a side and would buy Borthwick a very undeserved reprieve.

I want (and expect) us to win both games but the manner of those wins is also hugely important. Results ground out with dismal performances just aren't going to cut it.

 

[Duct Tape]

Surprised it is that high.

Agree. First half of last game maybe 0.5. And I'm being generous…

 

[Jimbo]

I never understand people who support England wanting us to lose … however, when winning papers over cracks the size of fault lines, winning can be unhelpful. A fluke ***le would be a totally false indicator of where we are as a side and would buy Borthwick a very undeserved reprieve.

I want (and expect) us to win both games but the manner of those wins is also hugely important. Results ground out with dismal performances just aren't going to cut it.

Agreed on both fronts, just to clarify I wasn't suggesting I want England to lose either games, winning both comfortable still more than likely results in a 2nd/3rd place finish anyway, that alone probably does more than is fair to justify SBs continued involvement and false hope for Englands progress. Unless France fall off a cliff in the last game they are deserved winners and seems some what of a fair reflection on how the 6 nations has been played.

 

[Zed]

So with Ireland losing England are still in it. Realistically they need BP wins against both Italy and Wales and then hope Scotland upset France.

Definitely need 2 BP wins because Ireland will get a BP next week to finish on 19pts and they have a much better points difference. It's a faint hope though as scoring another 8 tries seems unlikely right now. Still, if they want to prove everyone wrong they need to take the opportunity to at least come 2nd.

My prediction is England beat Italy, but play poorly and then lose to Wales, but SB keeps his job. I can't ever imagine wanting the Wallabies to lose, but the best thing for England fans is for an Italy win. Bizarre though, watching England play NZ on their tour, they looked like a top 3 side. They played so well and yet they'll probably scrape a 2 -3 point win over Italy at home. A team that would probably get 90 points put on them if they toured NZ.

 

[BPM]

Agreed on both fronts, just to clarify I wasn't suggesting I want England to lose either games, winning both comfortable still more than likely results in a 2nd/3rd place finish anyway, that alone probably does more than is fair to justify SBs continued involvement and false hope for Englands progress. Unless France fall off a cliff in the last game they are deserved winners and seems some what of a fair reflection on how the 6 nations has been played.

Yeah, that wasn't directed at you @Jimbo. There are quite a few posters here and elsewhere wanting England to lose. I 100% get the reasons behind it, I just can't get on board with actively wanting my team to lose.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Yeah, that wasn't directed at you @Jimbo. There are quite a few posters here and elsewhere wanting England to lose. I 100% get the reasons behind it, I just can't get on board with actively wanting my team to lose.

I've definitely said, for the first time, that I am starting to hope we lose. Have never understood it before, hit am getting on the stage where I don't see another way for change to happen.

Obviously the ideal scenario would be Borthwick bangs his head and suddenly becomes a world class/great/good/average/not utterly below par coach and we win the next world cup, but I don't see that.

Ultimately, stumbling to two more wins guarantees him the job until the RWC imo, and I'm still holding onto hope that this generation of players isn't wasted.

Even if we win the next two games, unless there is a HUGE turn around in style and just generally not looking ****, then I'm still all for getting rid of him

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I'm no Borthwick fan, but maybe a few pieces of the jigsaw are starting to come together.

The scrum isn't world beating, but it looks better than it has for a while.

Both Currys going well. Pretty sure Plan A is for Chessum at 6 with Martin and Itoje in the row. We haven't seen that due to injury, but I could get behind that, although that's currently the job of T Willis and it's great to see a powerful, abrasive carrier at 8.

F Smith isn't the finished article by any means, but I can see why some think he'll be a better, more conventional, 10 for us than M, especially given the other Saints in the backline. Having given him the nod, give him time to make his case, I think the ceiling's high.

Defence remains a problem and I don't think JEA is the right man. But he's currently job sharing and surely things will improve once we have his full attention. Surely?

Attack. Sco was awful, but that hadn't really been the way we'd been playing, so I'm putting that down to an aberration (for now). But we're also without Furbank who seems to be central to what SB wants to do and IFW who's probably our principal individual threat.

And the nonsense about us not being fit enough has mysteriously dropped away in the last couple of games. It's a 23 man game now so you can't just pack the bench with inexperience.

Performances haven't necessarily been great, but we've started to find a way to win, which is a good first step.

Still lots of questions about the coaching team and whether we have suitable back ups for Chessum, IFW and Furbank in particular.

Lose today or in Cardiff though and I'll be posting in a very different tone