Super Rugby: Crusaders - Force in Christchurch (14/07/2012)

[TRF_Ezequiel]

Rugby League Park, Christchurch

Referee: Glen Jackson
Referee: Keith Brown
Referee: Kane McBride
Referee: Vinny Munro
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[TRF_Ezequiel]

vBookie Crusaders-Force

Added

 

[Larksea]

CRUSADERS: 15-Israel Dagg, 14-Sean Maitland, 13-Adam Whitelock, 12-Ryan Crotty, 11-Zac Guildford, 10-Dan Carter, 9-Andy Ellis, 8-Richie McCaw (c), 7- Matt Todd, 6-George Whitelock, 5-Tom Donnelly, 4-Luke Romano, 3-Owen Franks, 2-Corey Flynn, 1-Ben Franks. Reserves: 16-Quentin MacDonald, 17-Wyatt Crockett, 18-Sam Whitelock, 19-Luke Whitelock, 20-Willi Heinz, 21-Tom Taylor, 22-Robbie Fruean

I think it's worth noting the work of Adam Whitelock.

I think he's a very good player and has for some time been one of the most solid and versatile players around but this year he has been particularly impressive and has actually been keeping Sean Maitland (who's been not far away from All Black selection) out of the starting lineup since Sean was injured.Adam's basically become a regular starter for the crusaders this season. I think he's added to his solid all round game where he uses his size well by also showing that he can be a good finisher as well - finishing some really impressive tries.

I've always liked the way he plays and thought it would be good for him to maybe move from the crusaders for more game time. But he's getting it every week now for the Crusaders. I know there are a lot of guys around who think he's not even super rugby standard and is only part of the Crusaders squad because he's a whitelock. I could not disagree more.

5 comp points to the crusaders this weekend.

 

[Darwin]

Pretty good Crusaders team. Sam Whitelock gets a rest, which is probably a good idea, and Donnelly should do a good job at lock. Interesting to see Fruean has been finally rested - I think he has been overused this season (as he as last season) so having a week off will do him good.

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

4 Whitelocks, nice... The Staal-brothers of the rugby-world.

 

[donmcdazzle]

CRUSADERS: 15-Israel Dagg, 14-Sean Maitland, 13-Adam Whitelock, 12-Ryan Crotty, 11-Zac Guildford, 10-Dan Carter, 9-Andy Ellis, 8-Richie McCaw (c), 7- Matt Todd, 6-George Whitelock, 5-Tom Donnelly, 4-Luke Romano, 3-Owen Franks, 2-Corey Flynn, 1-Ben Franks. Reserves: 16-Quentin MacDonald, 17-Wyatt Crockett, 18-Sam Whitelock, 19-Luke Whitelock, 20-Willi Heinz, 21-Tom Taylor, 22-Robbie Fruean

I think it's worth noting the work of Adam Whitelock.

I think he's a very good player and has for some time been one of the most solid and versatile players around but this year he has been particularly impressive and has actually been keeping Sean Maitland (who's been not far away from All Black selection) out of the starting lineup since Sean was injured.Adam's basically become a regular starter for the crusaders this season. I think he's added to his solid all round game where he uses his size well by also showing that he can be a good finisher as well - finishing some really impressive tries.

I've always liked the way he plays and thought it would be good for him to maybe move from the crusaders for more game time. But he's getting it every week now for the Crusaders. I know there are a lot of guys around who think he's not even super rugby standard and is only part of the Crusaders squad because he's a whitelock. I could not disagree more.

5 comp points to the crusaders this weekend.

That's becuase he isn't. He is the definition of the words underwhelming and mediocre. The best thing you can say about his game is that he doesn't make too many unforced errors and he doesn't miss too many tackles. That's about all he offers. He brings no pace, doesn't run good lines, can't kick, doesn't possess good skills, and can't create anything for anyone else. Any other franchise and he wouldn't make the training squad let alone the starting team. Being a Whitelock has less to do with it than being his style of player, the Crusaders always seem to have one of these boring guys in the backline who wouldn't get a sniff at any other team.

 

[Darwin]

That's becuase he isn't. He is the definition of the words underwhelming and mediocre. The best thing you can say about his game is that he doesn't make too many unforced errors and he doesn't miss too many tackles. That's about all he offers. He brings no pace, doesn't run good lines, can't kick, doesn't possess good skills, and can't create anything for anyone else. Any other franchise and he wouldn't make the training squad let alone the starting team. Being a Whitelock has less to do with it than being his style of player, the Crusaders always seem to have one of these boring guys in the backline who wouldn't get a sniff at any other team.

That is a bit harsh- he certainly isn't a stand-out at Super Rugby level, but he is certainly up to Super Rugby standard IMO (as a midfield back at least). He is a very solid player, with a low error rate and a high work-rate - he will often make more tackles than most of the forwards! I certainly don't see him as a regular starter at Super rugby level (especially on the wing as he is far too slow...)- I probably wouldn't have him starting for many NZ franchises (maybe at 12 for the Highlanders...), but he is a solid bench option/squad player due to his versatility/great work-ethic. I certainly wouldn't complain if he came down to the Highlanders next season

 

[donmcdazzle]

That is a bit harsh- he certainly isn't a stand-out at Super Rugby level, but he is certainly up to Super Rugby standard IMO (as a midfield back at least). He is a very solid player, with a low error rate and a high work-rate - he will often make more tackles than most of the forwards! I certainly don't see him as a regular starter at Super rugby level (especially on the wing as he is far too slow...)- I probably wouldn't have him starting for many NZ franchises (maybe at 12 for the Highlanders...), but he is a solid bench option/squad player due to his versatility/great work-ethic. I certainly wouldn't complain if he came down to the Highlanders next season

Fair enough, if you want an undersized loose forward playing 12 then he is pretty much your guy! By the way you pretty much agreed with me in that he doesn't offer a lot in terms of what you would expect from a back, the only good things you (or anyone) can say are that he works hard and doesn't make many errors. It really gets me that he makes super rugby when I think there are far better players not even in the squads. I can't imagine how he would stand out at club level.

 

[Larksea]

c'mon, he's been keeping Maitland on the bench up till now and I think if they weren't resting Fruen he'd be wearing 14 again ahead of maitland this weekend. Forget what you thought you knew about the guy and look at what he's done this season with an open mind. Solid all round as ever ultra reliable at holding possession and he's finishing some impressive tries through multiple defenders almost never makes a mistake.

I think he's the guy every team needs, any of the crusaders 11, 12, 13, 14 get injured he fills the gap and the crusaders don't miss a beat. This year i think he's taken that up another notch. He's looking genuinely hard to tackle.

 

[Larksea]

man stats are interesting, top 9 super rugby players for running meters are New Zealanders

 

[Darwin]

Fair enough, if you want an undersized loose forward playing 12 then he is pretty much your guy! By the way you pretty much agreed with me in that he doesn't offer a lot in terms of what you would expect from a back, the only good things you (or anyone) can say are that he works hard and doesn't make many errors. It really gets me that he makes super rugby when I think there are far better players not even in the squads. I can't imagine how he would stand out at club level.

Who exactly?

There are far worse players in Super Rugby than Adam Whitelock - he may not have had a huge number of standout games, but I can't ever recall him having a bad game! I think he would warrant inclusion in any New Zealand Super Rugby squad - as I mentioned I have him down in the Highlanders (ahead of the likes of Burleigh or Lynn), he obviously warrants a spot in the Crusaders squad (as he has started a number of games for them this season), I'd have him in the Canes (ahead of Hayward, Buckman, and probably Leiua), or Blues (ahead of the likes of Parkes or Munro), though would probably find it harder to find a spot for him in the Chiefs (though he could warrant a spot ahead of O'Donnell/Nemani who haven't really been used this season). I certainly don't think he is anything more than a journeyman Super Rugby player, but I do agree with Larksea that he is very under-rated by many people (I still remain un-convinced that he should be starting ahead of Maitland/Tom Marshall on the wing though....)

 

[donmcdazzle]

Who exactly?

There are far worse players in Super Rugby than Adam Whitelock - he may not have had a huge number of standout games, but I can't ever recall him having a bad game! I think he would warrant inclusion in any New Zealand Super Rugby squad - as I mentioned I have him down in the Highlanders (ahead of the likes of Burleigh or Lynn), he obviously warrants a spot in the Crusaders squad (as he has started a number of games for them this season), I'd have him in the Canes (ahead of Hayward, Buckman, and probably Leiua), or Blues (ahead of the likes of Parkes or Munro), though would probably find it harder to find a spot for him in the Chiefs (though he could warrant a spot ahead of O'Donnell/Nemani who haven't really been used this season). I certainly don't think he is anything more than a journeyman Super Rugby player, but I do agree with Larksea that he is very under-rated by many people (I still remain un-convinced that he should be starting ahead of Maitland/Tom Marshall on the wing though....)

I don't think there are any worse midfield backs in Super Rugby than him, and that is serious. He only goes alright cause of the system he is in, if you get annoyed at how little Gear gets the ball at the Highlanders imagine Whitelock at 12, he would never get it. If you put someone like Hadleigh Parkes in the Crusaders he would offer more than Whitelock has, same for Hayward who was far better during ITM cup than Whitelock, who I don't think has stood out at any level. Like you said he is a hard worker who doesn't cock too many things up - that is about as good as it gets for him. Strong runner sure, but he literally can't do anything other than tuck and run hard (without any pace).

c'mon, he's been keeping Maitland on the bench up till now and I think if they weren't resting Fruen he'd be wearing 14 again ahead of maitland this weekend. Forget what you thought you knew about the guy and look at what he's done this season with an open mind. Solid all round as ever ultra reliable at holding possession and he's finishing some impressive tries through multiple defenders almost never makes a mistake.

I think he's the guy every team needs, any of the crusaders 11, 12, 13, 14 get injured he fills the gap and the crusaders don't miss a beat. This year i think he's taken that up another notch. He's looking genuinely hard to tackle.

I must be watching a different player. He scored one try when he got exposed for gas and couldn't finish in the corner and had to cut back in to score it, still almost butchered it. Don't remember any other tries where he finished through numerous tacklers. I'm not going to argue that he is a hard worker who will run hard all day long (and those metres gained stats are true to that, but I think anyone on the wing for the Crusaders would have matched him if they played the same number of games), but he is so limited as a footy player, I've never seen him create anything.

 

[Darwin]

I don't think there are any worse midfield backs in Super Rugby than him, and that is serious. He only goes alright cause of the system he is in, if you get annoyed at how little Gear gets the ball at the Highlanders imagine Whitelock at 12, he would never get it. If you put someone like Hadleigh Parkes in the Crusaders he would offer more than Whitelock has, same for Hayward who was far better during ITM cup than Whitelock, who I don't think has stood out at any level. Like you said he is a hard worker who doesn't cock too many things up - that is about as good as it gets for him. Strong runner sure, but he literally can't do anything other than tuck and run hard (without any pace).

I certainly don't get annoyed at how little ball Gear gets at the Highlanders, I get annoyed at the exact opposite - the fact he gets far too much ball! This is not to say I don't like him getting ball, just that the Highlanders spread the ball wide regardless of the quality of the ball - the majority of the ball the Highlanders outside backs get is not good quality ball (i.e. they aren't in space and the defense is right up on them) - I'd prefer if Gear only received half as much ball if it was all quality ball!

Anyways back on topic.... Whitelock doesn't have great distribution skills, but they are not as bad as you are suggesting - I'd say he would certainly have a better passing game than Treeby! Parkes is like a worse version of Whitelock to me - a similar sort of player, but not consistent like Whitelock (Parkes has had a couple of shockers for the Blues this season). Hayward is certainly a better distributor, but is very unreliable on defense (while Whitelock is very good on defense, no matter where he plays...). Whitelock clearly lacks a bit of creativity, but paired with a creative midfield back he can be quite handy at this level... we will see how he goes at centre against the Force I suppose!

 

[donmcdazzle]

I certainly don't get annoyed at how little ball Gear gets at the Highlanders, I get annoyed at the exact opposite - the fact he gets far too much ball! This is not to say I don't like him getting ball, just that the Highlanders spread the ball wide regardless of the quality of the ball - the majority of the ball the Highlanders outside backs get is not good quality ball (i.e. they aren't in space and the defense is right up on them) - I'd prefer if Gear only received half as much ball if it was all quality ball!

Anyways back on topic.... Whitelock doesn't have great distribution skills, but they are not as bad as you are suggesting - I'd say he would certainly have a better passing game than Treeby! Parkes is like a worse version of Whitelock to me - a similar sort of player, but not consistent like Whitelock (Parkes has had a couple of shockers for the Blues this season). Hayward is certainly a better distributor, but is very unreliable on defense (while Whitelock is very good on defense, no matter where he plays...). Whitelock clearly lacks a bit of creativity, but paired with a creative midfield back he can be quite handy at this level... we will see how he goes at centre against the Force I suppose!

Yeah the Gear thing was admittedly a bad example in hindsight.

I'd rate him and Treeby about the same distribution wise; pretty much non-existant. But then at least Treeby is dynamic on the cut and has good quick feet. I can't disagree with anything your saying about him either, and I think we are almost saying the same thing in that there is nothing he does well (other than be consistent and not muck up) whereas for the other guys you can at least list one strong point to their game. Maybe I'm in the camp that doesn't appreciate a guy who brings nothing to the table but also doesn't take anything off. Whereas a guy like Leaiua brings a lot to the table but also can take a fair bit off too. I just can't imagine Whitelock ever carving people up at club rugby level the way a guy like Leaiua does (who I'm not a huge fan of just using as an example) so I'm not sure how he ever got called up to the next level.

After all my bagging of him he will probably go out and get a double while doing all the stuff I've just spent 4 posts on saying he can't do :lol:

Parkes has been wrecked this season by the way, I'm pretty he has never played fullback at any level before getting thrown back there for the Blues. I've watched a decent amount of him and he has much better skills than Whitelock and is a more powerful runner, I'd say he would be quicker too. You would never know any of that having seen him play a pretty shocking season this year though.

 

[Darwin]

Yeah the Gear thing was admittedly a bad example in hindsight.

I'd rate him and Treeby about the same distribution wise; pretty much non-existant. But then at least Treeby is dynamic on the cut and has good quick feet. I can't disagree with anything your saying about him either, and I think we are almost saying the same thing in that there is nothing he does well (other than be consistent and not muck up) whereas for the other guys you can at least list one strong point to their game. Maybe I'm in the camp that doesn't appreciate a guy who brings nothing to the table but also doesn't take anything off. Whereas a guy like Leaiua brings a lot to the table but also can take a fair bit off too. I just can't imagine Whitelock ever carving people up at club rugby level the way a guy like Leaiua does (who I'm not a huge fan of just using as an example) so I'm not sure how he ever got called up to the next level.

After all my bagging of him he will probably go out and get a double while doing all the stuff I've just spent 4 posts on saying he can't do :lol:

Yeah, I think we see the same attributes in him, we just place different values on these attributes I think he brings a bit more than 'nothing' to the table though - he is an above average defender (wherever he plays), has a massive work-rate, and can set up good go-forward ball in the midfield. He may not be outstanding at anything, but I think he is well above average in a number of areas (and his versatility is handy). I have actually seen Whitelock have a number of strong games for Canterbury, and I have no doubt he is able to 'carve up at club level' - indeed according to reports he did just that in his last club match only a few weeks ago, scoring 3 tries, setting up a couple more, and was in "outstanding form both on attack and in cover on defence"

Parkes has been wrecked this season by the way, I'm pretty he has never played fullback at any level before getting thrown back there for the Blues. I've watched a decent amount of him and he has much better skills than Whitelock and is a more powerful runner, I'd say he would be quicker too. You would never know any of that having seen him play a pretty shocking season this year though.

The way Parkes has been used by the Blues this season has been truly bizarre - I'm not sure where they got the idea that he is a fullback or wing ?!!?!?! I think he would be much more solid at centre, but he hasn't really impressed me that much for either Manawatu or Auckland though...

 

[Rhyer]

He also marked Robbie Fruean in that game. They aren't resting Fruean, he has just produced nothing this season, they dropped him.

 

[nickdnz]

I'm with Donmcdazzle on this one. As an outside back I don't think there is a singly New Zealand franchise who I can remember ever having a less dangerous outside back as a starting uption. He makes Caleb Ralph look like Rupeni Caucaunibuca. And I do think it costs the team. When Hurricanes beat the Crusaders I looked at Adam Whitelock and knew that there was no way he was going to be any danger on attack. He's safe, I'd go as far to say he'd be an alright bench option to cover the wings and centre if there was no better player. As it is they've lost Veainu and Poki to the Highlanders in the last few seasons because of lack of game time for the Crusaders, both of whom offer more to me than Adam Whitelock.

The worst part is, they've got the slowest outside back in Super Rugby (I think the description of him as an undersized flanker on the wing is very fair) over the fastest and one of the most dangerous. I rate Sean Maitland very highly (probably 2nd best right wing in the country behind Jane). He has a massive boot, extreme speed, finishes very well (9 tries last season), always gets past the advantage line if not makes a clean break and he's still only 23! I can't understand what Todd is doing when he has a player with as much talent and potential as Maitland on the bench for Sam Whitelock.

 

[Darwin]

I'm with Donmcdazzle on this one. As an outside back I don't think there is a singly New Zealand franchise who I can remember ever having a less dangerous outside back as a starting uption. He makes Caleb Ralph look like Rupeni Caucaunibuca. And I do think it costs the team. When Hurricanes beat the Crusaders I looked at Adam Whitelock and knew that there was no way he was going to be any danger on attack. He's safe, I'd go as far to say he'd be an alright bench option to cover the wings and centre if there was no better player. As it is they've lost Veainu and Poki to the Highlanders in the last few seasons because of lack of game time for the Crusaders, both of whom offer more to me than Adam Whitelock.

The worst part is, they've got the slowest outside back in Super Rugby (I think the description of him as an undersized flanker on the wing is very fair) over the fastest and one of the most dangerous. I rate Sean Maitland very highly (probably 2nd best right wing in the country behind Jane). He has a massive boot, extreme speed, finishes very well (9 tries last season), always gets past the advantage line if not makes a clean break and he's still only 23! I can't understand what Todd is doing when he has a player with as much talent and potential as Maitland on the bench for Sam Whitelock.

So you are saying that Adam Whitelock doesn't warrant inclusion in any New Zealand Super Rugby squad? I certainly don't think he should be starting on the wing at Super Rugby level, but I do think it is stretching it a bit to suggest he isn't good enough to play Super Rugby!

While I would definitely start Maitland over Whitelock, I think Maitland is very over-rated by many people. Yes, he is incredibly fast (easily the fastest man in NZ rugby in my opinion), but his work-rate is shocking, he quite often gets caught out of position in defense, and is seldom able to link up with team-mates if he makes a break (I think he forgets he has 14 team-mates when he gets the ball!). Hmm.... that sounds like my description of Hosea Gear a couple of years ago

Is Maitland good enough to be a starting wing at Super Rugby level? Definitely. Is he good enough to be an AB's wing over any of Gear, Guildford, Smith, Jane, Kahui, or Savea? No - I put him line with the likes of Masaga, Wulf, and Ranger in terms of AB's wing options.

 

[Rhyer]

Adam Whitelock is pretty good. He is an undersized flanker but at the same time, none of the Whitelock boys are very big or fast, they're tall but that's about it. Only reason Sam Whitelock is a regular for the All Blacks is he is tall enough to ignore these problems. Locks are not reknowned for being particularly strong, fast, play makers or skillful players.

 

[Rhyer]

Adam Whitelock is pretty good. He is an undersized flanker but at the same time, none of the Whitelock boys are very big or fast, they're tall but that's about it. Only reason Sam Whitelock is a regular for the All Blacks is he is tall enough to ignore these problems. Locks are not reknowned for being particularly strong, fast, play makers or skillful players.

They're slightly below average Super Rugby players to me. Apart from Sam as for the above reasonings. George is obviously the weak link in what could be the most dangerous loose trio in club rugby, with McCaw and Read. Crusaders need Nasi Manu to play 6 for them.

But then again, how many Islanders actually play for the Crusaders lately?

Edit : Sorry for double post.