[RWC2023] England vs Argentina (09/09/2023)

[BPM]

Really don't understand this, they didn't score one try and just kicked goals.

I didn't see any belly fires in them, in fact not in any one of the 30 players on that pitch.

Was I watching a different game from everyone else who actually enjoyed that?!.

Eh? I think you can only put in a performance like that with fire in your belly. To convincingly win despite being man down for 77mins against a team with hugely superior form, is huge.

It wasn't a pretty game, but it was a textbook display of how to win in extreme adversity. As a fan of the sport, I found it compelling and interesting in a different way to Friday night's opener for example.

To put your first sentence in to context, Lavanini saw red in he 19th minute of he same fixture in he 2019 World Cup. England were leading 5-3 at that point but went on to win the game 39-10. Argentina scored a try but that was in the 71st minute when England knew the win was in the bag and had dropped off. The point is - trying to score tries when you're a man down against a side of a similar standard only leads to one result.

 

[Wichita]

,Oh yeah while missing your openside ?! Shut up

It is not just being one man down, when for instance France is one man down, they keep playing because they know it is their best chance to stay in the game. Same for the AB, the Scots, ...
There, we are talking about the combination of the Argentinian being toothless and unable to exploit the red carding and the lack of confidence of the English team in their attacking ability. So in these circumstances, they chose the right tactic, but had the opponents been more technically and tactically gifted, this would not have lasted long.

 

[Nudger]

According to ChatGPT just now:

"As of my last knowledge update in September 2021, the biggest winning margin in rugby without scoring a try in a single game was achieved by England in a Six Nations match against Italy on February 14, 2009. England won the match 36-11 without scoring a try. They scored all their points through penalties, drop goals, and conversions."

How do you score conversions without trys?

 

[Jimbo]

Eh? I think you can only put in a performance like that with fire in your belly. To convincingly win despite being man down for 77mins against a team with hugely superior form, is huge.

It wasn't a pretty game, but it was a textbook display of how to win in extreme adversity. As a fan of the sport, I found it compelling and interesting in a different way to Friday night's opener for example.

To put your first sentence in to context, Lavanini saw red in he 19th minute of he same fixture in he 2019 World Cup. England were leading 5-3 at that point but went on to win the game 39-10. Argentina scored a try but that was in the 71st minute when England knew the win was in the bag and had dropped off. The point is - trying to score tries when you're a man down against a side of a similar standard only leads to one result.

To add to that if you find yourself down and in need of a try you may go hunting for one, if the opposition doesn't put you into that position what possible reason would you have for trying to play anything expansive knowing with similar work rate on both sides your always struggling to make any sort of overlap or numerical advantage.

You summed it up pretty well here none of us are kidding ourselves that will be anywhere near enough against top 4 - 6 but it is hopefully a foundation they can build upon and try and get some momentum, as an England fan I can get behind something with grit, determination and pride even if lacking the fireworks, what I can't is a lack of pride and impressions of laziness in terms of getting up off the line quickly reloading etc, they have a long way to go but certainly restored a bit of confidence for me, let's just hope it's not a one off.

 

[miccloarch]

I've never been so angry at an Argentine rugby team. England were there for the taking and the Pumas played like a tier 2/3 nation. Well done England I suppose lol.

 

[Wichita]

How do you score conversions without trys?

That's the beauty of AI, exploring new pathways outside the box

 

[Nudger]

For me, Rugby is about running and scoring tries. If you enjoyed this then good for you. For me it was worse than dire.

I would take 3 _ 0 win anyday

 

[Jimbo]

It is not just being one man down, when for instance France is one man down, they keep playing because they know it is their best chance to stay in the game. Same for the AB, the Scots, ...
There, we are talking about the combination of the Argentinian being toothless and unable to exploit the red carding and the lack of confidence of the English team in their attacking ability. So in these circumstances, they chose the right tactic, but had the opponents been more technically and tactically gifted, this would not have lasted long.

How did that go for NZ vs SA in the warmup?

 

[Nudger]

Suppose another thing that needs pointed out and was a major factor in winning the game. The length on England's contestable kicking was invariably exceptional.

How many times was the Argentinian defender trying to catch under pressure? Almost every time.

I can remember 3 easy marks called

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

This thread was always going to be fun, England winning brings out the best opinions and this was as weird a game as you'll see.

The red card was a red card for me, if you tackle upright and make contact with a players head in the tackle it's a red card. Unlucky, naive and unintentional but correct result.

On the other hand the Argentina player was pretty lucky, was watching in the pub so not 100% sure but I think he missed Ford's head? If he doesn't he sees red too. These things have to be results based.

The game was not a good watch from a neutral perspective. I had Argentina as a bit of a dark horse going in to the tournament. I thought they lacked discipline but had shown some very impressive attacking shape and ability to go through the phases. They went all in on the lack of discipline and forgot all about their shape. England were far from the lowest ranked side that would have beat them yesterday.

England on the other hand had it made easy for them (as easy as winning with a man down can be) but showed really good game awareness and intelligence to keep the scoreboard pressure on. They also put in a very impressive defensive shift. They've probably secured a semi final spot because of the draw but I think to go beyond that something drastic needs to happen, they still looked like a team lacking identity and going on muscle memory of old if I'm being totally honest. Farrell coming back could be a shake up they simply don't need also, whether or not the mental improvements had anything to do with him being gone is up for debate but Mitchell, Ford and then the more traditional centre pairing looks to be as natural a fit as they've had in awhile.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Nothing to make you think either will upset a side from the other side of the draw.

Reports out of France this morning that Jonny Sexton cried himself to sleep last night and had to be physically restrained from flying back to Dublin after seeing England successfully defend a loop play

 

[higgik]

What

Samoa must be licking thir chops after this display

Dont know, another physical side that doesn't ask many question of defence apart from standing strong in the tackle.
Japan maybe more of a danger as they will ask different questions.
The Aussies would run rings around us, as would the Irish, Scots, and ABs. While the Welsh will be far more accurate and make the pressure count.
The Argentineans looked like they were England of the summer. Trying very hard, but nothing working, or not every one on same page.

 

[higgik]

So er, based on tonight, Ford or Farrell?

Luckily I am not SB, and do not have to tell RFU that I am not picking their poster child!!!

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Reports out of France this morning that Jonny Sexton cried himself to sleep last night and had to be physically restrained from flying back to Dublin after seeing England successfully defend a loop play

They think they can defend the Sexton loop but they can't defend the Sexton loop, this is eternal.

 

[BPM]

This thread was always going to be fun, England winning brings out the best opinions and this was as weird a game as you'll see.

The red card was a red card for me, if you tackle upright and make contact with a players head in the tackle it's a red card. Unlucky, naive and unintentional but correct result.

On the other hand the Argentina player was pretty lucky, was watching in the pub so not 100% sure but I think he missed Ford's head? If he doesn't he sees red too. These things have to be results based.

The game was not a good watch from a neutral perspective. I had Argentina as a bit of a dark horse going in to the tournament. I thought they lacked discipline but had shown some very impressive attacking shape and ability to go through the phases. They went all in on the lack of discipline and forgot all about their shape. England were far from the lowest ranked side that would have beat them yesterday.

England on the other hand had it made easy for them (as easy as winning with a man down can be) but showed really good game awareness and intelligence to keep the scoreboard pressure on. They also put in a very impressive defensive shift. They've probably secured a semi final spot because of the draw but I think to go beyond that something drastic needs to happen, they still looked like a team lacking identity and going on muscle memory of old if I'm being totally honest. Farrell coming back could be a shake up they simply don't need also, whether or not the mental improvements had anything to do with him being gone is up for debate but Mitchell, Ford and then the more traditional centre pairing looks to be as natural a fit as they've had in awhile.

Re. Curry's red and Carreras' yellow …

I worry about the precedent Curry's red creates. I think we're approaching a tipping point where a whole host of 'rugby incidents' could become red cards. We absolutely need to protect player welfare and the long term effects of head injuries are an existential threat to rugby as we know it. However, it is a contact sport where this kind of in incident will occur.

Charge downs similar to Carreras on Ford have ended players' careers though. It was completely intentional and really is the definition of reckless. For me, those are the types of incidents that deserve red cards.

 

[Wichita]

How did that go for NZ vs SA in the warmup?

They were already 0-14 down when Barrett was red carded, they had no option but to try and go for it. Anyway, the ABs are not built for an attritional gameplan, they would have lost all the same.

 

[Jimbo]

They think they can defend the Sexton loop but they can't defend the Sexton loop, this is eternal.

Ford was even doing 'Jonny Sexton things' with a brilliant kick to touch.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Re. Curry's red and Carreras' yellow …

I worry about the precedent Curry's red creates. I think we're approaching a tipping point where a whole host of 'rugby incidents' could become red cards. We absolutely need to protect player welfare and the long term effects of head injuries are an existential threat to rugby as we know it. However, it is a contact sport where this kind of in incident will occur.

Charge downs similar to Carreras on Ford have ended players' careers though. It was completely intentional and really is the definition of reckless. For me, those are the types of incidents that deserve red cards.

I'm closer to thinking both should be a red card than Curry not being sent off. I look at his body position making a tackle and subsequent head contact. It'd be a no brainer if the player was running normally.

Agreed on the second point but it's hard to make non result based laws be anywhere close to satisfactory. Refs barely get the very easy to follow tackle protocols correct. Determining a "controlled" v "uncontrolled" jump would be tricky as hell.

It is admittedly a bit simplified and inequitable but red cards aren't popular and players getting away with contact to the head isn't either so I don't really know how else to proceed.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

Did you guys watch post-match press conf? Cheika gets asked in spanish so he replies in spanish and then gets translated to english...
I mean, i understand and appreciate the effort. He even learned the lyrics to the anthem mand sang it. Kudos.
Now, when i watch a press conf my main aim is to fish for content. This is not a quick-fire Q&A session where most of the answers are 'yes' or 'no'. These require a somewhat delicate approach and if the person is spending 80% of his brain power looking for the words in a language he aint fluent, well, everyone loses. It's actually a no-brainer. We ALL waste time, content and/or effort.
Again, i appreciate the effort. Hugely. But no thanks. There are more than decent spanish translators on site. We are all better off if he eloquently presents his ideas and lets someone else communicate those to other people in their own languages.

UAR didnt even upload the interview.

 

[duncanb]

Happy with result, again a red correct under protocols we have.
Defence structures looked good, lineout and maul worked well.
Mitchell, Ford looked good.
Lawes ,Earl outstanding at breakdown for slowing ball down.
Scrum worked well but unable to attack off a decent platform owing I guess to using Marchant on crash ball rather than Manu who was in scrum.
No chance to see any much else on attacking side as Argentina gave us penalties and of course Ford game managed to keep score board pressure.
Overall satisfied moving back in right direction just need to see more attack in next match.