Rugby Championship: New Zealand - Australia (25/08/2012)

[InsaneAsylum]

SA who have gone back to box kick/bombing as their way to attack

a couple of years ago I would have stayed up to watch the wallabies play SA over there. Sadly, I think i'll opt for the extra sleep this year.

 

[Captain Fantastic]

If we go by the feedback from Genia's and Coopers interviews after the game the othernight and this exert from Robbie Deans the we can expect the AB's to push the boundaries even further and stretch away from the chasing packs.

His point that the "shackles are off" are obviously in reference to finally winning the RWC after 24 years of choking......watch out World the AB's I belieive wil get better and better and the EOYT to Europe will be a slaughter field for the Scots, Poms, French with the Welsh being the only worthy challengers

Wallabies coach Robbie Deans perhaps best summed up the situation as he contemplated his 14th loss to New Zealand from 17 attempts. "The shackles are off," Deans said matter of factly.
"They are playing like a side that's endorsed before the first whistle and from a purely rugby perspective it's a blueprint in terms of their mental and physical capabilities.
"Their ability to cope when they haven't got the ball, their ability to adapt and read what's happening. Clearly they're No 1 and for good reason they've been No 1 for some time."
Deans then predicted the All Blacks would win the Rugby Championship and would probably not lose a match.
No wonder then that it was a relaxed Hansen who mulled his next move.
Although there is some doubt over lock Luke Romano, who has aggravated a troublesome shoulder and will be monitored this week, Woodcock's rib injury has healed.
A host of All Blacks will play for their provinces, but Hansen's key men will get a rest before facing the Pumas.
Hansen has the luxury of replacing Williams with Smith, who has all but recovered from the detached retina that has kept him out of the two Bledisloe Cup tests.
That will presumably see Smith resume his well established midfield partnership with Ma'a Nonu, a man champing at the bit to reclaim his favoured No 12 jersey.

 

[Draggs]

That crazy guy - TRF_Darwin I think his name was - has been ranting on about Ben Smith for years. Everyone thought he was simply a nutter (TRF_Darwin, not Ben Smith), but oh how things have changed

Cloning technology... A backline full of Ben Smiths.

 

[admartian]

That crazy guy - TRF_Darwin I think his name was - has been ranting on about Ben Smith for years. Everyone thought he was simply a nutter (TRF_Darwin, not Ben Smith), but oh how things have changed

Yeah - I'm sure that Darwin guy is getting all the laaaadieees right about now based on his predictions about Ben Smith.

Lucky *******... 8)

If we go by the feedback from Genia's and Coopers interviews after the game the othernight and this exert from Robbie Deans the we can expect the AB's to push the boundaries even further and stretch away from the chasing packs.

His point that the "shackles are off" are obviously in reference to finally winning the RWC after 24 years of choking......watch out World the AB's I belieive wil get better and better and the EOYT to Europe will be a slaughter field for the Scots, Poms, French with the Welsh being the only worthy challengers

Wallabies coach Robbie Deans perhaps best summed up the situation as he contemplated his 14th loss to New Zealand from 17 attempts. "The shackles are off," Deans said matter of factly.
"They are playing like a side that's endorsed before the first whistle and from a purely rugby perspective it's a blueprint in terms of their mental and physical capabilities.
"Their ability to cope when they haven't got the ball, their ability to adapt and read what's happening. Clearly they're No 1 and for good reason they've been No 1 for some time."
Deans then predicted the All Blacks would win the Rugby Championship and would probably not lose a match.
No wonder then that it was a relaxed Hansen who mulled his next move.
Although there is some doubt over lock Luke Romano, who has aggravated a troublesome shoulder and will be monitored this week, Woodcock's rib injury has healed.
A host of All Blacks will play for their provinces, but Hansen's key men will get a rest before facing the Pumas.
Hansen has the luxury of replacing Williams with Smith, who has all but recovered from the detached retina that has kept him out of the two Bledisloe Cup tests.
That will presumably see Smith resume his well established midfield partnership with Ma'a Nonu, a man champing at the bit to reclaim his favoured No 12 jersey.

I think the ABs just need to build that chemistry more, in order to finish on those opportunities.

And Hansen is doing that well by sticking with 97% of his squad game to game.

a couple of years ago I would have stayed up to watch the wallabies play SA over there. Sadly, I think i'll opt for the extra sleep this year.

I'd still watch them.

I think Deans just needs to go back to what worked last year. Barnes can be a dangerous player outside Cooper, and he can also be his safety net. I'd keep with a largely unchanged side (maybe not go to the level that the ABs are going - but definitely keep the core) test to test (barring injuries and awful play).

He just needs to allow Genia to dictate the play (I honestly thought something was stifling Genia, and at times he looked to try and break out of it) and needs to be the designated playmaker and let him loose.

Cooper either needs to be left on his own to make plays and have Barnes or Genia just support feed off him whether he's doing good or bad. It's up to Robbie to pull him or keep him on tbh - and I don't think he's ever done a good job with his bench (as opposed to someone like Sir Ted, who always had a good feel for the flow of the game and when to keep/sub players on).

Australia's main issue is depth. That can't be fixed with the coach. That's something that has to be grown which means time invested. Whether Aussies have that patience remains to be seen. You guys certainly have the resources to do it.

I do agree with he sentiment that with 'traditional' rugby nations like NZ, SAF, Wales, and to some extent Ireland and Aus - that the players do need to 'play for the flag'. As in, having a coach that is of your rival nation's is a bit counter-intuitive.

 

[Colombia]

If we go by the feedback from Genia's and Coopers interviews after the game the othernight and this exert from Robbie Deans the we can expect the AB's to push the boundaries even further and stretch away from the chasing packs.

It makes sense for those guys to talk up NZ having just been soundly beaten by them twice. After all, if you lose to a supposedly great team it can't be your fault, right? Personally, I wouldn't read too much into it.

 

[Captain Fantastic]

The advantage that OZ will have over the Boks is the ability of Genia and Pocock, Cooper and Beale to outsmart and outrun a fairly predictable bok team.

The Boks just appear to me to be a click behind in pace and brainpower. I do think that the Wallabies will actually win comfortably at home, however not so certain about their chances in Bok land but one wonders how weak that Bok pack looks without Matfield, Bakkies, Schalk, Juan, Spies and the leadership of Smit. Not sure if this new crop of Boks will be their savouring light? Well not for a few years at least

 

[Captain Fantastic]

It makes sense for those guys to talk up NZ having just been soundly beaten by them twice. After all, if you lose to a supposedly great team it can't be your fault, right? Personally, I wouldn't read too much into it.

Then when do you read something into it? So your at least admiting to the fact the current AB's are a great team? We have many times seen the AB's set the threshold for styles of rugby and though over the ages the likes of the Boks and the POMs in 03 showed us that 10 man rugby actually had a place....The new ELV's have now evolved the rugby landscape to a point where by those teams with flair, skill, enthusiasm and intelligence will most likely be those teams remaining at the top of the IRB world rankings. Personally I'm reading a lot into it!!!

 

[Colombia]

Then when do you read something into it? So your at least admiting to the fact the current AB's are a great team? We have many times seen the AB's set the threshold for styles of rugby and though over the ages the likes of the Boks and the POMs in 03 showed us that 10 man rugby actually had a place....The new ELV's have now evolved the rugby landscape to a point where by those teams with flair, skill, enthusiasm and intelligence will most likely be those teams remaining at the top of the IRB world rankings. Personally I'm reading a lot into it!!!

Which ELVs in particular do you feel evolved the rugby landscape? almost all of the radical ELVs were rejected and we were left with more tweaks to the game than anything.

As to NZ I think last year they had a very good team but they have lost a certain amount of steel in their pack with Thorn retiring and Kaino opting for Japan. Williams has gone now and messrs McCaw and Carter are looking their age. Still a good team which probably still has the edge on the other nations but at the moment I currently don't see a genuinely "great" team in test rugby.

 

[admartian]

The advantage that OZ will have over the Boks is the ability of Genia and Pocock, Cooper and Beale to outsmart and outrun a fairly predictable bok team.

The Boks just appear to me to be a click behind in pace and brainpower. I do think that the Wallabies will actually win comfortably at home, however not so certain about their chances in Bok land but one wonders how weak that Bok pack looks without Matfield, Bakkies, Schalk, Juan, Spies and the leadership of Smit. Not sure if this new crop of Boks will be their savouring light? Well not for a few years at least

I still think the Boks will outmuscle the Aussie pack.

And their backs are big.

Which ELVs in particular do you feel evolved the rugby landscape? almost all of the radical ELVs were rejected and we were left with more tweaks to the game than anything.

As to NZ I think last year they had a very good team but they have lost a certain amount of steel in their pack with Thorn retiring and Kaino opting for Japan. Williams has gone now and messrs McCaw and Carter are looking their age. Still a good team which probably still has the edge on the other nations but at the moment I currently don't see a genuinely "great" team in test rugby.

Definitely a misconceived perception of the two - people just look at the numbers next to age and assume "drop off" in play.

Incorrect.

McCaw has certainly lost a step or two. But he's made up for that in size, and has adapted this with a different type of play (rather than trying to make every breakdown, he picks his moments; and also added a more punishing running game and is still excellent in defence).

Carter is still a master playmaker. Maaaybe lost a step, but that was never his game. He's definitely the closest thing rugby has seen to a genuine Quarterback - choosing lines and which runners to put into space, and into which space. Analysing the game well, and knowing just when to run, pass, kick or spread it wide.

He's lost nothing there, if anything has gained more with age.

In saying that, I am not against a Cruden/Carter five-eigth combo with Smith at Centre. Especially with the ABs game being more about using the backs as precision line breakers (save for Gear/Savea), and using our loosies as the battering rams.

 

[Colombia]

Definitely a misconceived perception of the two - people just look at the numbers next to age and assume "drop off" in play.

Incorrect.

McCaw has certainly lost a step or two. But he's made up for that in size, and has adapted this with a different type of play (rather than trying to make every breakdown, he picks his moments; and also added a more punishing running game and is still excellent in defence).

Carter is still a master playmaker. Maaaybe lost a step, but that was never his game. He's definitely the closest thing rugby has seen to a genuine Quarterback - choosing lines and which runners to put into space, and into which space. Analysing the game well, and knowing just when to run, pass, kick or spread it wide.

He's lost nothing there, if anything has gained more with age.

In saying that, I am not against a Cruden/Carter five-eigth combo with Smith at Centre. Especially with the ABs game being more about using the backs as precision line breakers (save for Gear/Savea), and using our loosies as the battering rams.

As you acknowledge yourself McCaw has lost a step or two, I feel while still obviously test standard he's just not the world class force he once was (understandable given his age and caps). While never the best kicker Carter used to be a lethal attacker, consistently stepping the first defender and offloading, we just don't see that from him any more. The two are just not what they were, father time catches up with all players and I would not be surprised to see them being phased out in the next 12 months.

As to Cruden, he's a great prospect but needs to bring more maturity to his decision-making to become a world class 10. Like most post-WC test nations, NZ are in a transitional phase.

 

[Larksea]

McCaw still dominates the ruck arrival stats in pretty much every game he plays, pretty much the same for tackle count. No he's not in his prime but he's still the best 7 in the world

 

[Captain Fantastic]

Which ELVs in particular do you feel evolved the rugby landscape? almost all of the radical ELVs were rejected and we were left with more tweaks to the game than anything.

As to NZ I think last year they had a very good team but they have lost a certain amount of steel in their pack with Thorn retiring and Kaino opting for Japan. Williams has gone now and messrs McCaw and Carter are looking their age. Still a good team which probably still has the edge on the other nations but at the moment I currently don't see a genuinely "great" team in test rugby.

Fair point about the ELV's but TBH the style of rugby has evolved and their have been more than tweaks that have been bought into the game ad no doubt more are about to come in. Those that adapt the best and address their strategy to best meet the changes will be those teams that surely maintain dominance.

Yes NZ certainly had a more balanced team last year with Kaino and Thorn providing massive power and mongrel that is not quite there at the moment. Nonetheless SBW wasn't no where near the form he was this year. I see McCaw playing as good as he has been and recent stats show that he has been doing more than Pocock and Coetzee whom are rated as his greatest threat to his mantle as the worlds best? Carter well TBH there is only one other Fly half that comes close to his mantle as worlds best and thats Cruden. Even though he maybe a click down he is still click ahead of anything else on tthe planet and that includes Cruden. But I know that Carter and McCaw will in all likelihoods not be part of the 2015 RWC squad.

All international teams after a RWC are in a transitional stage not just the ALL Blacks. in consideration to this point I am certain that of all nations NZ transition has been and is the best planned as we have seen so far with the results. As with the AB's they get better as the season progresses so the strategies from Hansen and Co appears to at least have direction unlike the Wobblies, Boks, Irish Eng that we have viewed so far

Great team in the makings with the right bones - Kaino will be back, SBW will be back, Romano has the makings of being a mongrel with better ball skills than Thorn but I think the Argies will feel real heat in Wellington and the Boks will fail also on a covered dry Dunedin ground the following week

 

[Darwin]

As you acknowledge yourself McCaw has lost a step or two, I feel while still obviously test standard he's just not the world class force he once was (understandable given his age and caps). While never the best kicker Carter used to be a lethal attacker, consistently stepping the first defender and offloading, we just don't see that from him any more. The two are just not what they were, father time catches up with all players and I would not be surprised to see them being phased out in the next 12 months.

As to Cruden, he's a great prospect but needs to bring more maturity to his decision-making to become a world class 10. Like most post-WC test nations, NZ are in a transitional phase.

Carter has always been a world class kicker, both from hand or at goal. I do agree in some ways though that Carter isn't the attacking threat that he used to be, but he is still far and away the best 10 in world rugby. There is no way either he nor McCaw will be 'phased out' anytime soon, as they are still playing world class rugby.

Yeah - I'm sure that Darwin guy is getting all the laaaadieees right about now based on his predictions about Ben Smith.

Lucky *******... 8)

You would think that, wouldn't you! However the opening line of "Hey babe, did you know that I have known that Ben Smith is awesome for years?" never seems to work for some unknown reason This is perhaps a good thing though , as I can't imagine my wife would be that impressed if I got "all the laaaadieees"....

 

[InsaneAsylum]

the all blacks are a great side, no problem with me or any of you guys saying that, but when the coach and senior players of the wallabies sit in a press conference and that's all they can say, then it shits me to tears because that's not the attitude that they should have as professionals. give them some praise for their performance but vow to come back tougher and make them pay, destroy them, do whatever it takes to hit them where it hurts (easy to say in theory, but that's their job to execute, not mine).

 

[Sam Owen]

the all blacks are a great side, no problem with me or any of you guys saying that, but when the coach and senior players of the wallabies sit in a press conference and that's all they can say, then it shits me to tears because that's not the attitude that they should have as professionals. give them some praise for their performance but vow to come back tougher and make them pay, destroy them, do whatever it takes to hit them where it hurts (easy to say in theory, but that's their job to execute, not mine).

.
Just as some kiwis feel that although they missed some oppertunities, the All Blacks played really good. Deans and co. should have mentioned about how poorly they played and still managed to keep the ABs tryless for as long as they did.

Deans does use the 'hey its the all blacks' excuse a lot. He should mention positives about his team, give due credit and shed some of his intelligence on things in the game that we might have not thought about.

 

[Gavin]

Any Aussie fans starting to regret Matt Giteau heading to Toulon for so long? He has been playing very well at both 10 and 12.

 

[welshglory]

Well he's a lot better than Barnes imo. It's amazing how much flak he copped in his last year in Australia, he was effectively kicked out

 

[nickdnz]

Well he's a lot better than Barnes imo. It's amazing how much flak he copped in his last year in Australia, he was effectively kicked out

Yep, I was pretty disappointed with that. He was like only 28 or something as well, had 92 caps. True, his goalkicking wasn't always amazing, but he did everything else well. I really think Australia miss him.

 

[Draggs]

Yep, I was pretty disappointed with that. He was like only 28 or something as well, had 92 caps. True, his goalkicking wasn't always amazing, but he did everything else well. I really think Australia miss him.

Some seemed to hint that he and Deans didn't get along (a bit like PdV and Francois Steyn, perhaps).

 

[madflyhalf]

Some hinted that he didn't along with many coaches (look at his Brumbies years)...