Rate Tier 1 nations in order

[Darwin]

1. Argentina
2. Australia
3. England
4. France
5. Ireland
6. Italy
7. New Zealand
8. South Africa
9. Scotland
10. Wales

I win.

 

[Horacito]

I didn't want to paint them as unbeatable, sorry. If I did so, it was my mistake.

Of course England have a chance, but that doesn't mean you play the same league. Play the Six Nations is not the same thing to TN, play the Heineken is not the same to play Super Rugby.

Sure England have world class talent, I haven't said anything different. I said you do not have players like Genia, Beale or Cooper, but only two other teams in the world have. Who has an equivalent to Genia? New Zealand, with Johnson? Maybe, but not as good. Fourie du Preez... maybe years ago, not today. Sorry if this offends some Bokke, I know they appreciate Fourie very very very much. Cooper may be a bit more human, he depends too much on his sidestep, but he's not a word class talent, he's a genius. Owen Farrell is a world class talent: he kicks nicely, he tackles, he has good moments, he can give you points, he does everything on the book, but he's not Quade Cooper. With all the good and the bad it carries: the ego, the selfishness, the poor choices.

Kurtley Beale mention was out of line, I have to say that. ´

When I say England doesn't have a chance against Australia, I simply mean that they produce much more talent and their game is based more on aspects that rest in the simple hability of every player. Another thing is to say that they use that talent and production of geniuses like crap, and it would be right to say it, but doesn't take away that, taking in consideration the assets of each one separately, Australia is miles away.

England can even that with tough work? Absolutely. They not just can, they're actually doing it, and winning.

 

[Maverick1987]

I think the problem here comes when you have to think about the last five. Also in the top 5 there's something: Australia is better than England. No chance here for the english. Of course they are able to defeat the AB's once in a couple of years -out of our league of course-, but is way too different a level of competition if you think about the trouble in the context of a year, not just the ranking based on their actual ranking of IRB.

To begin with, Waratahs won Super Rugby, the most exigent rugby competition in this corner of the universe. England didn't won with Saracens; of course you could say Toulon is like Real Madrid of rugby, and it doesn't represent France's level at this moment, so the plucky brits prove to be the greatest of european talents at this moment. That's actually quite convincing, but I don't see it: Saracens, in a smaller scale have also foreing players, and even so, they are a professional rugby club with a big structure and take players from other english clubs (smaller, by the way). They are not underdogs. Waratahs are a team with australian players, australian coach, who played against the teams who produce the superstars who head to France when the moment of making big money comes, and they defeated them with extraordinary hability.

And the kind of game they deploy is another aspect. Compliments to english supporters, your boys are so extraordinary disciplined -on the field, by the way, we learned in 2011 they're not so polite off- and genuinely plucky, so teacious: they are ordered, commit few penalties, do everything just like the books tell to. But is not very thrilling. Wait: I know that is not an argument, but is just that. The point is that it's based on things that are not talent, but something anybody could achieve. That is very democratic I know, but not something you can search for glory on sport I think, you need a bit more. Let me explain myself again: of course they have talent, they're england's rugby team for God's sake, but they are not Australia. Aussies are a storm, an earthquake that simply doesn't have anything to compare with at any other nation of the tier-1; we're talking about a team who losed two genius like Genia and Cooper, loosed their first match against us in decades and still, with all the problems and mismanagment it had over the years, have the responsabilty to win every single time and, if not, you degade them immediatily. Jesus, every single autumn international I have to hear english complaining about the off-side the All Blacks allways get away with, that penalty in the third minute that OBVIOUSLY conditioned the entire match... what would be if they losed a couple of players like Genia and Cooper... and Beale?

Oh, wait, they actually don't have any player of that level. As much as I like -and I really do- Twelvtrees.

So I think ranking England over Australia, because of their level, their talent, their game, is quite absurd.

And the thing of the lower ranking -fifth to tenth- is simply about being a winner or a looser. It's miserable to put it like that, but it's how it is. Mental strenght, psicologhical preparation, mentality over all... Argentina is a looser, we just don't know how to kill a match. Maybe that'll change now. Wales doesn't have the ambition to reign over Europe, and they could. Italy needs to find a new way to estimulate rugby other than naturalize argentinians and australians, Scotland... I don't really know anything about them, sorry. I think, with the years, there has been a momentum that simply expands over the time, and that stream is etremely hard to resist and to change, it takes really brilliant managment and lead to do so, if it doesn't happen, teams get stacked in the same position like France, like Canada or Japan. I basically think all the numbers from 5 to 10 are more or less exchangable.

Sorry if somebody felt insulted by this post.

That's basically 6 paragraphs of absolute garbage . I'm sorry to be so blunt but it's true . It like you have been wandering around Pontypridd asking people what they think of the English and taking notes lol

 

[sharkfan]

Wales lost their last 9 games against Wallabies, even in their prime, 2012 (Grand Slam) & 2013 and you picked them over Aussies???
hmmm...ok lets switch the two around, but the wallabies is really a mess at the moment and Wales nearly beat the Boks in Nelspruit this year.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Wales lost their last 9 games against Wallabies, even in their prime, 2012 (Grand Slam) & 2013 and you picked them over Aussies???
hmmm...ok lets switch the two around, but the wallabies is really a mess at the moment and Wales nearly beat the Boks in Nelspruit this year.

And the Wallabies nearly beat the Boks in SA this year, and did beat them in Australia.

 

[sharkfan]

And the Wallabies nearly beat the Boks in SA this year, and did beat them in Australia.

If you concede three tries in the last ten minutes, then you are not a good side, and if it was not for our wonderfully inept flynalf not kicking the penalty kick out at the death, we would have won in Perth. The Aussies are going through a torrid time. They have incompetent coaching staff, players misbehaving and then they lose against Argentina and get humiliated in Auckland. And they could only beat a poor French team 6-0 earlier this year. They are blowing hot and cold at the moment and are not consistent.

Jake White would have been a good coach for them. Unlike Robbie Deans, White had some insider knowledge of the way the game is played in Oz by coaching the Brumbies to one their most successful seasons in a long time only losing out in the final, and he off course also has a World Cup medal to be proud of.

 

[Wendigo7]

peter stormare 2001, you and many others on this forum and in the world who follow Rugby and aren't French need to understand something:
France "may still be France" in that they still have enormous depth and tons of quality players throughout and the Rugby culture is still there and all things in that direction...but the ability for France to be great is out of the equation as long as we have this coaching staff. The only asterisk I'll keep here, for security, is because of changes in the roster and in the staff/direction, a bit of a turnaround is still possible from now, into 2015.
But this thread focuses on the ranking of the Tier 1 nations right now, and so must take the past 8-12 months into account only.

Trust me, making all those 2000's French mixes (French Flair and Scrums) I've been dealing with our past prowess extensively recently. But although France had its flaws and drops of form intermittently, on the whole they were indeed really good, and were capable of near miracles, if not downright miracles. We don't have this anymore. That component has left us. There haven't been, and there won't be any surprises. We *can* beat England, Wales, Ireland, Australia, maybe S.A. or even the AB on a good day (our last 4 tests were okay against the Blacks) but it'll just be through a fine, focused 80min effort. It won't be anything "magical" like before.
There is no fear to be had from France right now. All our strong cultural points are dead now - the attacking flair, even the scrum. We're just NOT FRANCE with Saint-André.

Never a truer word said.

Apologies for the bite earlier on, but whilst that coach is in charge.. it will only end in Doom sadly. It is also compounded that the french league has alot of foreign stars and although there is clearly french talent (did well in the U20s last year), they aren't seeing game time and more importantly aren't getting developed well...

I just think the french league has gone into a results driven business and it's costing the french team as a result. There needs more balance. Alot more balance.

 

[Big Ewis]

You seem to have a strange compulsion to single out my comments every time, did I wrong you in a past life or something Ewis? Funny I made a bet with myself that you would do that and was right. Still, I'm sure we can rely on you to be the measure of what to say and what not to.

talk about over-statements, just pure gold enragedrancher. "Strange compulsion" and then "every time". Mother of all exaggeration, that honestly made me smile for a while. YES, I SUCK ON THE INNOCENT'S WELL-BEING AND GOOD MOOD TO FULFILL MY NOXIOUS ENVY RARRRR PULL MY FINGER - PULL MY FINGER !!!! GIVE ME VIRGIN BLUUUD I NEED IT FOR SOME COLD COCKTAIL I'VE CONCOCTED CONCORDANTLY WITH CARDAMOM, I'M TEH CRYPTIC PRANKY KINKY CLOWN, TEH FACE OF FEAR PUTS A SMILE ON MY FACE, FEED ME WITH DESPAIR AND LAUGHTER - THEY ARE THE SAME. PREYING ON TENDER CANDOR FILLS ME WITH A LUSTFUL HIGH.
Oh dear........Awww shucks, rangerover, now look what you've made me do !...

Never a truer word said.

Apologies for the bite earlier on, but whilst that coach is in charge.. it will only end in Doom sadly. It is also compounded that the french league has alot of foreign stars and although there is clearly french talent (did well in the U20s last year), they aren't seeing game time and more importantly aren't getting developed well...

I just think the french league has gone into a results driven business and it's costing the french team as a result. There needs more balance. Alot more balance.

yep, but yours are still very erroneous ! I love the tone you're using, like you know what you're saying is true for fact and isn't just proposition or speculation. We ought to all just sit back and read this well documented, ripe fruit of a post. If you cared about what you're talking about, you'd know the U20 results or "seeing more game time" but more importantly the fact we've got tons of foreigners here have nothing to do with the current dismay of French Test Rugby. The only department the foreigners hinder is props, TH more precisely but both.

As for there "being talent", that's an understatement if anything right there. France is gorged and oozing with guys at all positions everywhere, and the best we have at each position are either world class or just about.
Let's see:
Wesley Fofana, prob the best 12 in the world still today, the guy is just a one-off Rugby virtuoso. Add to him a Fritz or Bastareaud (leaving out the Mermoz or Fickou or others). That's the midfield. On the wings, any of Huget, Guitoune, Teddy Thomas or a horde of pure wingers. Dulin, the still underrated and best fullback in all the Top 14. We're most probably the deepest nation at 9, and as if we needed Kockott, we have Tilous-Bordes, Parra and Machenaud as the really high-level guys, associated with any of Trinh-Duc or Camille Lopez (which may both be in my Top 5 flyhalves in the world right now, or Top 6-7) or even Talès which the staff has been picking. Until recently, we still had the best scrum in the world (statistically, fact) with a good choice of quality hookers, an array of second rowers and a plethora of third-rowers with all sorts of different profiles.
You take all that, and you go basically win-less in 2013 and then have the 2014 campaign to show for subsequently.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Get over yourself Ewis, you are not one to make such comments about being angry or exagerrating.

 

[Big Ewis]

Get over yourself Ewis, you are not one to make such comments about being angry or exagerrating.

wh...you're still alive ?!!!! Recalcitrant little smurf...

 

[nickdnz]

1. Argentina
2. South Africa
3. Australia
4. France
5. Italy
6. England
7. Ireland
8. New Zealand
9. Wales
10. Scotland

Of course French women may beat Australian women if we judge on accents...the U.K was very harshly marked on consistency. New Zealand may have been unlucky on the basis of not being foreign, while I feel Italy looks out of place so low. I'll have to give this a rethink..

 

[Groundhog]

1. Ireland
2. Foreign ******** whose games I won't watch unless Ireland are playing them
3. Scotland

 

[Mrs. Peter Quinn]

New Zealand looked absolutely over the moon when they won that game against Australia at the very death, therefore I conclude that they are not the all-conquering team we thought but are actually a 3rd tier side. From New Zealands delight at winning the game I conclude that Australia are the worlds best union side.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

@heineken been staying father quiet, must be thinking about his mistakes and changing them.

 

[Jbobo]

As an Irishman, I'm always afraid of France.

Just like as a Welshman, i'm always afraid of Ireland.

It's ridiculous to really try to rank the teams from 4 to 6, as the margins are so small. It's all probably completely moot. Also ignoring 1/2 tier as Samoa are clearly 1st tier quality.

1. New Zealand
2. South Africa
3. Australia
4. Ireland 5. England 6. Wales

I literally cannot decide. It looks wrong either way i put it, but i genuinely believe that if Wales turn up they have the most ability of the three and one bad 6N doesn't change that for me. But still, without more proof (other than second match against SA) i can't justify putting them ahead of either England or Ireland at this moment.

7. Argentina
8. France
9. Samoa
10. Scotland
11. Italy

 

[Jbobo]

Are you being facetious? At what point have England ever even been on par with South Africa? And Australia is still in another league compared to northern hemisphere.

1 New Zealand
2 South Africa
3 Australia
4 Argentina
5 England
6 Wales
7 Ireland
8 France
9 Samoa
10 Scotland
11 Italy

Irony

 

[Big Ewis]

Of course French women may beat Australian women if we judge on accents...the U.K was very harshly marked on consistency. New Zealand may have been unlucky on the basis of not being foreign, while I feel Italy looks out of place so low. I'll have to give this a rethink..

I happen to find the Aussie accent in particular on women very hot !!

Just like as a Welshman, i'm always afraid of Ireland.

Yeah, it's the 5N/6N perfect triangle. France's cryptonite is England, Wales' is Ireland in more recent years, England's was Ireland for a while...France has been Ireland's...right now of course everybody in the 6N is France's cryptonite, so we've sort of fkd that triangle up...except Scotland though. I hate to brag, but they've beaten us once since the 6N started...tbf, they beat us 22-36 in Paris the last year of 5N in '99, but then again who DIDN'T beat us in 99...

 

[SimonG]

Rankings are a nonsense. Some of the comments towards England (especially that Argie at the top) are wide of the mark.

I will say this, if England have everyone fit (essential for any team), and if they can get a fly half to do a solid job (If it's Farrell he needs to step up), England will be lifting the Webb Ellis Cup next year.

Fantastic coach who has been preparing them for 2015
Peaking at just the right time
Solid pack, endless riches in the back row
Burgess-Tuilagi centre partnership
Playing at Twickenham every game

Come in number two.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

I happen to find the Aussie accent in particular on women very hot !!



Yeah, it's the 5N/6N perfect triangle. France's cryptonite is England, Wales' is Ireland in more recent years, England's was Ireland for a while...France has been Ireland's...right now of course everybody in the 6N is France's cryptonite, so we've sort of fkd that triangle up...except Scotland though. I hate to brag, but they've beaten us once since the 6N started...tbf, they beat us 22-36 in Paris the last year of 5N in '99, but then again who DIDN'T beat us in 99...

luckily for the welsh and the irish the french has nothing to be scared off apart from a new coach

 

[Big Ewis]

luckily for the welsh and the irish the french has nothing to be scared off apart from a new coach

that's difficult to understand, are you saying luckily for the Welsh and Ire, France are harmless until they get a new coach ? Btw, you like Tom and Jerry ?