Rate Tier 1 nations in order

[SimonG]

to be honest its probably better than the other s**t you get on tv now a days apart from rugby

What do you mean "to be honest" as though T & J has to be defended. "Probably better than the other s**t"??

Tom and Jerry, Road Runner etc are timeless classics. Now if you are over the age of 13 and watch WWE that's a different story

 

[Jbobo]

dude I genuinely don't mean this in a negative, pompous way. But just trust me, you don't know what you're talking about. Like just 'Bastareaud is overrated', I can see you haven't watched Toulon at all this season, nobody who knows would agree with that. If there were anything interesting in your post, I'd attempt to answer it, but there isn't so I'll just settle for this respectful reply. And for the last sentences of your post, I don't see where that attitude is coming from but it certainly was very unnecessary.

Well trust me, the performance of the French team speaks for itself. Regarding Basteraud, as i pointed out he is surrounded by world class players most of which are foreign nationals. For France he has been woeful in my opinion.

Regarding my attitude, i apologise if i cause any offence although i think you're just being a bit butt-hurt by my assertions. Also, if you read your posts you should understand that they come across as extremely patronising and lacking of any real insight. All to each own's perception though.

Good day

 

[Big Ewis]

I think he made the point that France play as individuals and that as a unit they lack any real direction or plan. Would France be number 1 in the world with proper coaching staff, no. I think that to be the best rugby has to be your main sport like in New Zealand and South Africa, England managed it in 2003 but that was a bit of a fluke and because we have so many players because of our population.
With the amount of French players in the Top 14, I don't think the issue is the sheer numbers. I think the problem you have is the mentality coaches have when it comes to results. Most leagues in the world are geared around the national team and trying to make them a success, in France it is very much club rugby first. So if a young French player is playing well then great, but if his performances start to slip then they will be dropped. Look at Toulouse in how they use Galan, they played Tekori over him at 8 because Noves needs results and he can't take risks with young French guys, even if they appear to be good enough. Look at Toulon they let Palisson, Martin and Gunther all go this summer and they brought in O'Connor, Halfpenny and Gorgodze. Even though they have supplied a large contingent of the France squad only 3 or 4 of them normally start if everyone is fit, if i'm being generous. But for every Toulon there is a Montpellier, who have given guys like Speloni a chance after their first choice got injured.

uhm well there's some truth in there. Yes it's club first here, too much pressure in the Top 14 and organizations/coaches need to be lucid. But then it's not as bad as you seem to think: clubs like Clermont, Paris or even Racing are keen on trying out their local products. Clermont has just had Tighthead Clément Ric sign another 3 years, and we all know the importance of that position and with their budget they could've just bought an already trained big name. There's still a certain principial conscience there. Even Toulon has been on a French talent acquiring binge, like I mentioned here:
http://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/34076-Transfers-2015-16?p=683130&viewfull=1#post683130

So yes there are big int'l names in Toulon, but also 7-8 guys picked from there for France this November:
Menini, Chiocci are both the regulars on the LH end, Guirado is the best hooker they have, STBordes is their first choice SH. Basta and Mermoz are their premier midfield. Romain Taofi has become one of their two top locks (with aging Ali Wil, Bakkies, and Suta) while Bruni is growing into a fantastic specimen at backrow, despite not being 300kg but isn't a regular starter (yet).

Galan is still in the learning curve and saw lots of game time when he wasn't injured though Saffy. He's been out for a long time now but was getting time early this season..

England was great in 2000-03, it wasn't a fluke, they were 9-0 (I believe) against the SH nations during that run and put 45 on France twice and smashed everyone in the 6N consistently, and of course got both the GS and RWC the same year. That's consistency, not luck. That much isn't debatable about them, while other things may perhaps be up for discussion about the methods.

New Zealand aren't the best just because everybody loves Rugby, it's the way they play. They could be obsessed with it, but play a NH style. Which they don't; and Australia won 2 RWC's despite having a much larger population, and de facto mixed interest amongst the population which isn't all crazed over Rugby Union only.

Well trust me, the performance of the French team speaks for itself. Regarding Basteraud, as i pointed out he is surrounded by world class players most of which are foreign nationals. For France he has been woeful in my opinion.

so you're clearly admitting yourself you're basing your pov on the French team alone, not the way those French int'ls play in their clubs respectively in the Top 14. Which is the entire point at hand ==> that they don't show anything they can do in Bleus because there's no strategy, chemistry or a positive mindset there.

And "Bastareaud only plays well in Toulon because he's surrounded by foreign talent". Tell me my friend, is it that magical aura of the foreign presence that makes Bastareaud tackle the biggest dude on the field like it's nothing ? That makes him complete such a good tackle rate ? That makes him win a turnover over 4 guys every few matches ? That makes him bump every first tackle ? That makes him stay on his feet longer than anyone and demand the attention of 2 or 3 guys ? More recently that makes him fix and pass the right way ?

 

[TRF_heineken]

What do you mean "to be honest" as though T & J has to be defended. "Probably better than the other s**t"??

Tom and Jerry, Road Runner etc are timeless classics. Now if you are over the age of 13 and not watching WWE that's a different story

Ftfy!

 

[TheSaffycen]

uhm well there's some truth in there. Yes it's club first here, too much pressure in the Top 14 and organizations/coaches need to be lucid. But then it's not as bad as you seem to think: clubs like Clermont, Paris or even Racing are keen on trying out their local products. Clermont has just had Tighthead Clément Ric sign another 3 years, and we all know the importance of that position and with their budget they could've just bought an already trained big name. There's still a certain principial conscience there. Even Toulon has been on a French talent acquiring binge, like I mentioned here:
http://www.therugbyforum.com/threads/34076-Transfers-2015-16?p=683130&viewfull=1#post683130

So yes there are big int'l names in Toulon, but also 7-8 guys picked from there for France this November:
Menini, Chiocci are both the regulars on the LH end, Guirado is the best hooker they have, STBordes is their first choice SH. Basta and Mermoz are their premier midfield. Romain Taofi has become one of their two top locks (with aging Ali Wil, Bakkies, and Suta) while Bruni is growing into a fantastic specimen at backrow, despite not being 300kg but isn't a regular starter (yet).

Galan is still in the learning curve and saw lots of game time when he wasn't injured though Saffy. He's been out for a long time now but was getting time early this season..

England was great in 2000-03, it wasn't a fluke, they were 9-0 (I believe) against the SH nations during that run and put 45 on France twice and smashed everyone in the 6N consistently, and of course got both the GS and RWC the same year. That's consistency, not luck. That much isn't debatable about them, while other things may perhaps be up for discussion about the methods.

New Zealand aren't the best just because everybody loves Rugby, it's the way they play. They could be obsessed with it, but play a NH style. Which they don't; and Australia won 2 RWC's despite having a much larger population, and de facto mixed interest amongst the population which isn't all crazed over Rugby Union only.

The team winning wasn't a fluke I mean having the best 10 ever (IMHO), one of the greatest backrows ever, Martin Johnson, World class front rows, then players like Greenwood, Tindall, Robinson all being at the same time. The fluke was all these guys being around the same time, it really was a golden generation.

You mention that Toulon have signed lots of new French players in the post you linked, this year they got in 5 french players and 5 foreign players. They let go 5 french guys and 4 foreign guys retired. Clermont brought in 2 french guys this year, 6 foreign guys. Racing let go 6 French guys brought in 4. Toulouse let 8 French guys go and brought 2 French guys in, brought in 3 foreign guys. Slowly more foreign guys are coming in, hopefully France don't turn into the England Football Team.

 

[Jbobo]

so you're clearly admitting yourself you're basing your pov on the French team alone, not the way those French int'ls play in their clubs respectively in the Top 14. Which is the entire point at hand ==> that they don't show anything they can do in Bleus because there's no strategy, chemistry or a positive mindset there.

And "Bastareaud only plays well in Toulon because he's surrounded by foreign talent". Tell me my friend, is it that magical aura of the foreign presence that makes Bastareaud tackle the biggest dude on the field like it's nothing ? That makes him complete such a good tackle rate ? That makes him win a turnover over 4 guys every few matches ? That makes him bump every first tackle ? That makes him stay on his feet longer than anyone and demand the attention of 2 or 3 guys ? More recently that makes him fix and pass the right way ?

Um, no. As i stated before, I am saying that these top French players have a much more significant impact because they are surrounded with world class players who ARE NOT French. This is crucial. As we can see with the French team, they have been unable to reach the heights expected of them because they are do not have the quality around them. They have only a couple of international performers because in the Top14 teams, too many of the performers are not French. This has rubbed off internationally. The league is suffocating its own talent pool and great French players are becoming more and more scarce.

Basteraud is a big lump. He can be devastating in club rugby due to his size and lack of skillful opposition, but as soon as you stick him against seasoned internationals he cannot run through them, he cannot catch them and is generally hopeless all in all. He is a barely capable international player sorry to say.

Edit:

Slowly more foreign guys are coming in, hopefully France don't turn into the England Football Team.

This. Except i believe that it has already happened - spectacularly so in the six nations.

Blaming the coach is largely just classic head-in-the sand rubbish.

 

[TheSaffycen]

This. Except i believe that it has already happened - spectacularly so in the six nations.

Blaming the coach is largely just classic head-in-the sand rubbish.

The coaching has alot to do with it. Playing players in the wrong position or out of form guys, no matter if it's New Zealand if you play inside centres on the wing or scrum halfs at Fly Half. He even played a loosehead at tighthead and that would **** any team in the world up.

 

[Jbobo]

The coaching has alot to do with it. Playing players in the wrong position or out of form guys, no matter if it's New Zealand if you play inside centres on the wing or scrum halfs at Fly Half. He even played a loosehead at tighthead and that would **** any team in the world up.

These drastic changes in selection usually follow abysmal performances with the 'conventional' selection.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Do you really think for a second Fofana Huget Dulin Lamerat etc...lack attacking ability ?? It's really quite easy to get a hang of the problem if you devote 3 or 4 seconds to it.
Does this mean France would be number 1 in the world with a proper coaching staff ? Who's saying that, nobody's saying that...

Not at all, re-read what I wrote. Individually France have some very good talent in various positions but the problem is when they play for France, they don't tend to meld as well together into a team thus everyone is relying on their individual abilities and moments of individual brilliance to get things moving as opposed to being a cog in a coordinated team effort. I feel this is the primary difference between France and England, I think France has better players but is struggling to utilise them well together whilst England has a lower calibre at the moment (primarily in the backs) but has a tendency to work better as a unit.

 

[Groundhog]

tá mé leithscéal as mo theanga ionsaitheach

Maith an buachaill

 

[Big Ewis]

Um, no. As i stated before, I am saying that these top French players have a much more significant impact because they are surrounded with world class players who ARE NOT French. This is crucial. As we can see with the French team, they have been unable to reach the heights expected of them because they are do not have the quality around them. They have only a couple of international performers because in the Top14 teams, too many of the performers are not French. This has rubbed off internationally. The league is suffocating its own talent pool and great French players are becoming more and more scarce.

Basteraud is a big lump. He can be devastating in club rugby due to his size and lack of skillful opposition, but as soon as you stick him against seasoned internationals he cannot run through them, he cannot catch them and is generally hopeless all in all. He is a barely capable international player sorry to say.

what ?...just, what ? I'd be wise to not reply to this. You're almost completely wrong, and I don't have the energy to make a point for point response and thankfully have learned to manage that said energy on forums. Some time ago, I'd have written a four paragraph *****ing. I say this with no emotion at all, this I swear - you're just completely wrong.
I mean, why am I so patient ? what am I losing time answering someone talking such surreal and utter rubbish...I'm French. I know. I watch Top 14 like I breathe. I know our players, I actually do, contrary to you. Have you seen France play ? Have you seen the game in Cardiff, in Murrayfield, the 3 in Australia ? The ones before that, the 2013 season games ? Not just the scorelines (which are actually mostly decent) but the actual 80 minutes of Rugby France have played ? Of course you haven't, and if you had - you're saying that's just the very level those individuals put together brings ? Dude, that's a hilarious statement, I don't even...you don't see how comical that is do you ? that's really like a joke. That's just funny, man. Nobody with a shred of knowledge could make that comment.

You think 2013 and '14 were the regular level those guys can bring, Saint-André is a decent/good Test Rugby coach, and fans saying otherwise are repressed fools who resort to the easy fix of blaming it all on the coach because they can't accept the results - and I've just spent some 10 min patiently replying to a very foolish post from a guy talking to a Top 14 buff about things he obviously has almost entirely no idea about and makes points about things his interlocutor thrives on and doesn't seem to see an issue with that - nice going Big Ewis...patience really does translate into foolishness sometimes.

That's like me talking to an evidently devout Jew about the Tora and start dictating how it is. I've some knowledge about it scattered around but will have both the stupidity and stubborn audacity to form a conclusion with the little piece of petty trivia-like knowledge I have about it. The definition of a fool.


@ragerancher: uhm. Yes, we've settled that before and that extract you've quoted was more of an impersonal interrogation rather than implying you said those things. Also, you're absolutely right. Although this may not have been correct in other eras, even as of recently in fact, it is obviously the issue. England don't have as much talent as France right now, and there were very few moments in history they did when one thinks about it. But England have typically always known how to make a team work, whichever the parts were. But this is valid for any Tier 1 nation atm (which isn't Italy or Scotland). Everybody plays with an actual chemistry well. France have been playing mercenary ball. It wasn't so long ago that we could play truly as a team, but it's certainly never returned since that point. Even when we've played alright (most recently the ENG or IRE games) it was still largely guys taking initiative and letting their individual class do the talking for a lack of any program whatsoever from staff and family.
Said this before, will say it again: there are two reasons we didn't get SMASHED every single match from 2013-2014. Great defence (gotta hand it to the PSA staff - until last summer at least...) and the sum of the class of our individuals keeping us right above water level.

 

[iINDOMINUSxx]

Maith an buachaill

mar sin conas atá tú ar an lá breá

 

[Jbobo]

what ?...just, what ? I'd be wise to not reply to this. You're almost completely wrong, and I don't have the energy to make a point for point response and thankfully have learned to manage that said energy on forums. Some time ago, I'd have written a four paragraph *****ing. I say this with no emotion at all, this I swear - you're just completely wrong.
I mean, why am I so patient ? what am I losing time answering someone talking such surreal and utter rubbish...I'm French. I know. I watch Top 14 like I breathe. I know our players, I actually do, contrary to you. Have you seen France play ? Have you seen the game in Cardiff, in Murrayfield, the 3 in Australia ? The ones before that, the 2013 season games ? Not just the scorelines (which are actually mostly decent) but the actual 80 minutes of Rugby France have played ? Of course you haven't, and if you had - you're saying that's just the very level those individuals put together brings ? Dude, that's a hilarious statement, I don't even...you don't see how comical that is do you ? that's really like a joke. That's just funny, man. Nobody with a shred of knowledge could make that comment.

You think 2013 and '14 were the regular level those guys can bring, Saint-André is a decent/good Test Rugby coach, and fans saying otherwise are repressed fools who resort to the easy fix of blaming it all on the coach because they can't accept the results - and I've just spent some 10 min patiently replying to a very foolish post from a guy talking to a Top 14 buff about things he obviously has almost entirely no idea about and makes points about things his interlocutor thrives on and doesn't seem to see an issue with that - nice going Big Ewis...patience really does translate into foolishness sometimes.

That's like me talking to an evidently devout Jew about the Tora and start dictating how it is. I've some knowledge about it scattered around but will have both the stupidity and stubborn audacity to form a conclusion with the little piece of petty trivia-like knowledge I have about it. The definition of a fool.
.

C'mon now Ewis, to say you have more rugby knowledge than me or anyone else on this board is the thing that is amusing here. The reason you 'don't have the energy to make a point for point response', yet have plenty to go on and write 11 lines about how incredibly patient you are and to make a stupid remark comparing your knowledge of religious ideologies to my level of rugby knowledge - is because you don't posses the ability to form a logical response and because you are blinded by your patriotism.

You talk a lot, but say very little.

But then, i'm clearly just a fool clearly seeing as you're so devout on the subject.

Edit: Can you tell me this...What happens if France get a new coach following the world cup (if it is a failure for the team), yet still suck really bad? What then? Time to admit that France just aren't the awe-inspiring-talent machine you think they are and haven't been for years?

 

[Big Ewis]

JBobo, you're wrong dude. Really. This isn't about me being right. It's turned very uninteresting, very fast. Someone who doesn't want to reply to you: it could be because they have nothing to say, no substance, or it could be because they feel the case is hopeless as there is too little intelligence or trace of anything worth replying to. Your latest reply helps me further confirm what I suspected. You've been saying so much erroneous, unfounded and downright wrong things, have misquoted me a number of times...it's just a mess. You seem to have a complex with France also.
Dude, just...don't know what to tell ya ! Byebye ! Won't read or reply to your next post dude if there is one (on this topic, others I might !), guaranteed.

 

[Jbobo]

JBobo, you're wrong dude. Really. This isn't about me being right. It's turned very uninteresting, very fast. Someone who doesn't want to reply to you: it could be because they have nothing to say, no substance, or it could be because they feel the case is hopeless as there is too little intelligence or trace of anything worth replying to. Your latest reply helps me further confirm what I suspected. You've been saying so much erroneous, unfounded and downright wrong things, have misquoted me a number of times...it's just a mess. You seem to have a complex with France also.
Dude, just...don't know what to tell ya ! Byebye ! Won't read or reply to your next post dude if there is one (on this topic, others I might !), guaranteed.

The ironic thing is that you're the one who has been constantly misquoting me. You don't even bother to think before you type do you?

It's like debating with a one-eyed goldfish

Edit: I have no disdain towards France or French people (pretty rich coming from you Mr Cultural Sensitivity)

Cheers

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

It's like debating with a one-eyed goldfish

That is an interesting mental image...

 

[Jbobo]

That is an interesting mental image...

I wanted it to be really hard-hitting

 

[Draggs]

Is this another thread wrecked? Lovely.

 

[Big Ewis]

Is this another thread wrecked? Lovely.

yep, and not my fault this time !

 

[Jbobo]

yep, and not my fault this time !

It never is, is it Ewis?


Spoiler - It definitely is.