[EOYT] Wales vs. South Africa 09/11/13

[TRF_stormer2010]

Saturday, 9th of November 2013, 17h30 (local)
Cardiff, Wales
Referee: Alain Rolland
​

I can't believe this thread isn't up yet. Are people not interested? Anyway, I'll update once the team line-ups are available. I expect a massice game; if you look at recent games and particularly games in Wales (and that RWC2011 game in NZ) it has been tight stuff.

Matchday squads:​

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 400, align: center"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD="align: center"]Wales starting XV[/TD]
[TD="align: center"] SA starting XV[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

Leigh Halfpenny 15 Patrick Lambie
George North 14 JP Pietersen
Jonathan Davies 13 Jaque Fourie
Scott Williams 12 Jean de Villiers (c)
Eli Walker 11 Bryan Habana
Rhys Priestland 10 Morne Steyn
Mike Phillips 9 Fourie du Preez
Gethin Jenkins 1 Tendai Mtawarira
Richard Hibbard 2 Bismarck du Plessis
Adam Jones 3 Frans Malherbe
Bradley Davies 4 Flip van der Merwe
Alun Wyn Jones 5 Eben Etzebeth
Dan Lydiate 6 Francois Louw
Sam Warburton (c) 7 Willem Alberts
Toby Faletau 8 Duane Vermeulen

[TABLE="class: grid, width: 400, align: center"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TD]Wales bench[/TD]
[TD] SA bench[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

Ken Owens 16 Adriaan Strauss
Paul James 17 Guthro Steenkamp
Scott Andrews 18 Coenie Oosthuizen
Luke Charteris 19 Pieter-Steph du Toit
Justin Tupiric 20 Siya Kolisi
Lloyd Williams 21 Ruan Pienaar
James Hook 22 JJ Engelbrecht
Liam Williams 23 Willie le Roux​

[TABLE="class: wikitable"]
<tbody>[TR]
[TH]Date[/TH]
[TH]Venue[/TH]
[TH]Score[/TH]
[TH]Victor[/TH]
[TH]Comments[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]9 November 2013[/TD]
[TD]Millennium Stadium, Cardiff[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]â€"[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[TD]2013 Autumn International[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]11 September 2011[/TD]
[TD]Wellington Regional Stadium, Wellington[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]17 â€" 16[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD]2011 Rugby World Cup[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]13 November 2010[/TD]
[TD]Millennium Stadium, Cardiff[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]25 â€" 29[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD]2010 Autumn Internationals[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5 June 2010[/TD]
[TD]Millennium Stadium, Cardiff[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]31 â€" 34[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8 November 2008[/TD]
[TD]Millennium Stadium, Cardiff[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]15 â€" 20[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD]2008 Autumn Internationals[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]14 June 2008[/TD]
[TD]Loftus Versfeld, Pretoria[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]37 â€" 21[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]7 June 2008[/TD]
[TD]Vodacom Park, Bloemfontein[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]43 â€" 17[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]24 November 2007[/TD]
[TD]Millennium Stadium, Cardiff[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]12 â€" 34[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD]2007 Autumn Internationals[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]19 November 2005[/TD]
[TD]Millennium Stadium, Cardiff[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]16 â€" 33[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD]2005 Autumn Internationals[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]6 November 2004[/TD]
[TD]Millennium Stadium, Cardiff[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]36 â€" 38[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD]2004 Autumn Internationals[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]26 June 2004[/TD]
[TD]Loftus Versfeld, Pretoria[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]53 â€" 18[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]15 June 2002[/TD]
[TD]Newlands, Cape Town[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]19 â€" 8[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]8 June 2002[/TD]
[TD]Vodacom Park, Bloemfontein[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]34 â€" 19[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]26 November 2000[/TD]
[TD]Millennium Stadium, Cardiff[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]13 â€" 23[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]26 June 1999[/TD]
[TD]Millennium Stadium, Cardiff[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]29 â€" 19[/TD]
[TD]

Wales[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]14 November 1998[/TD]
[TD]Wembley Stadium, England[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]20 â€" 28[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]27 June 1998[/TD]
[TD]Loftus Versfeld, Pretoria[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]96 â€" 13[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]15 December 1996[/TD]
[TD]National Stadium, Cardiff[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]20 â€" 37[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]2 September 1995[/TD]
[TD]Ellis Park, Johannesburg[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]40 â€" 11[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]26 November 1994[/TD]
[TD]National Stadium, Cardiff[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]12 â€" 20[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]24 January 1970[/TD]
[TD]National Stadium, Cardiff[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]6 â€" 6[/TD]
[TD] draw[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]23 May 1964[/TD]
[TD]Kings Park, Durban[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]24 â€" 3[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]3 December 1960[/TD]
[TD]National Stadium, Cardiff[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0 â€" 3[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]22 December 1951[/TD]
[TD]Cardiff Arms Park, Cardiff[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3 â€" 6[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]5 December 1931[/TD]
[TD]St. Helen's, Swansea[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]3 â€" 8[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]14 December 1912[/TD]
[TD]Cardiff Arms Park, Cardiff[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0 â€" 3[/TD]
[TD]

South Africa[/TD]
[TD][/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]1 December 1906[/TD]
[TD]St. Helen's, Swansea[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]0 â€" 11[/TD]
[TD] South Africa[/TD]
[/TR]
</tbody>[/TABLE]

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

What I would expect the SA line-up to look like (somewhere between what I would expect from HM and what I'd like to see):

1 Tendai Mtawarira
2 Bismarck du Plessis
3 Coenraad Oosthuizen
4 John Botha
5 Eben Etzebeth
6 Francois Louw
7 Willem Alberts
8 Duane Vermeulen
9 Fourie du Preez
10 Morne Steyn
11 Bryan Habana
12 Jean de Villiers (c)
13 Jaque Fourie
14 JP Pietersen
15 Willie le Roux

16 Guthrö Steenkamp
17 Adriaan Strauss
18 Pieter-Steph du Toit
19 Siya Kolisi
20 Ruan Pienaar
21 Patrick Lambie
22 Zane Kirchner
23 Lourens Adriaanse

 

[TRF_heineken]

Well from what I've seen from news reports are that HM is going to be experimenting a bit. And the latest reports based on what's going on at the training field is that Frans Malherbe will start at tighthead prop.

I don't want to make any predicted teams, as I have no idea what HM wants out of this tour, and who he's going to pick. So I'll just wait until he announces the team tomorrow and then comment on that.

 

[TRF Mr Fish]

Wow didn't realise it had been so long since Wales had beaten South Africa!

 

[TRF_Ezequiel]

It's nice to see someone else putting up the threads for once

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Well from what I've seen from news reports are that HM is going to be experimenting a bit. And the latest reports based on what's going on at the training field is that Frans Malherbe will start at tighthead prop.

I don't want to make any predicted teams, as I have no idea what HM wants out of this tour, and who he's going to pick. So I'll just wait until he announces the team tomorrow and then comment on that.

That is quite interesting. I would be quite happy with Frans Malherbe but don't know if this is the test to through him into the deep end against a very formidable Welsh front row. I don't know what HM would see as experimental. The noises I've heard is that PS du Toit will be coming on from the bench. TBH I'd just be glad if he got capped. Like you said it's just speculation ATM but if that's all I have right now I'll take it LOL.

Wow didn't realise it had been so long since Wales had beaten South Africa!

Ja, we are on a bit of an unbeaten run against Wales and England; 13 and 11 matches respectively. Pity about that loss in Wales otherwise it could have been a clean slate.

It's nice to see someone else putting up the threads for once

I couldn't wait any longer. I'm glad you don't see it as encroaching on your turf so to speak.

 

[dullonien]

I'm hoping that this will be a cracker of a match. I'm certainly expecting a physical encounter.

I expect to see a Wales line-up of:

01 Gethin Jenkins / Paul James (personally I'd edge towards James for his scrummaging, but Gethin has always started when fit).
02 Richard Hibbard
03 Adam Jones
04 Alun-Wyn Jones
05 Ian Evans
06 Dan Lydiate
07 Sam Warburton
08 Toby Faletau

09 Mike Phillips
10 Rhys Priestland / Dan Biggar (unsure which way this selection will go either. I'd pick Dan, but Rhys is a firm favourite of Gats).
11 George North
12 Scott Williams
13 Jon Davies
14 Eli Wales / Liam Williams (depends if Gats fancies playing it safe, or going with a guy who could cause some real damage).
15 Leigh Halfpenny

16 Paul James / Gethin Jenkins
17 Ken Owens
18 Aaron Jarvis
19 Luke Charteris
20 Justin Tipuric
21 Lloyd Williams / Rhodri Williams
22 James Hook
23 Liam Williams / Eli Wales

 

[TRF_Cymro]

A statistician would easily say that from those results posting above, in recent times the gap of points is closing.

Wales have high expectations put on them now not only by the media / fans but also themselves. Seeing England beat Australia last week and the Lions doing the same over the summer and before that NZ losing to England there is much pressure on Wales to finally deliver.

Personally it is going to be a tight knit affair for the most part with one side separating themselves in that last 15 min period at the end of the game. My heart says Wales but my head is telling me South Africa.

Some interesting noise that has come out of the Wales camp in the last 24 hours. Ian Evans is an injury doubt and Bradley Davies is his likely replacement to start if this is the case.

Another is that Gatland is refusing to meet Alan Rolland in response to Warbs sending off by him. Take it as you believe it obviously Gatland feels that there is trust issues that cannot be resolved and obviously something has been said behind closed door in the past that we the public are privy to. Also Gatland must be confident that he knows how Rolland is going to referee the game. However this doesn't mean someone else from the backroom staff won't be going in his place. It's how Gatland has phrased it, he won't be seeing Rolland but as I said, he hasn't said someone else will go in his place. Can imagine if Wales lose then this will be brought up by a number of phone callers on the phone in show on Radio Wales after the match.

For South Africa Meyer want's the roof open so they can play in horrendous conditions to get used to what the World Cup will be like.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

That's pretty petty from Gatland, if true.

Davies going into the squad would be interesting - undoubtedly a good player, but Wales will hope he goes in with a cool head because if someone gives him a bit of ****le and he does something daft and gets carded it'll be disastrous.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

A statistician would easily say that from those results posting above, in recent times the gap of points is closing.

Wales have high expectations put on them now not only by the media / fans but also themselves. Seeing England beat Australia last week and the Lions doing the same over the summer and before that NZ losing to England there is much pressure on Wales to finally deliver.

Personally it is going to be a tight knit affair for the most part with one side separating themselves in that last 15 min period at the end of the game. My heart says Wales but my head is telling me South Africa.

Some interesting noise that has come out of the Wales camp in the last 24 hours. Ian Evans is an injury doubt and Bradley Davies is his likely replacement to start if this is the case.

Another is that Gatland is refusing to meet Alan Rolland in response to Warbs sending off by him. Take it as you believe it obviously Gatland feels that there is trust issues that cannot be resolved and obviously something has been said behind closed door in the past that we the public are privy to. Also Gatland must be confident that he knows how Rolland is going to referee the game. However this doesn't mean someone else from the backroom staff won't be going in his place. Can imagine if Wales lose then this will be brought up by a number of phone callers on the phone in show on Radio Wales after the match.

I am banking on that being the case for the players taking the field as well. That said one cannot deny that the gap is closing. Aus have already lost their 'glamor' to a very large degree this year. NZ are still a ways ahead though and in SA the feeling is that we are on an upward curve.

As for how coaches handle the refs/media Gatland should be careful IMO but man HM has done a sterling job since taking IMO though anyone would probably look reasonable, eloquent and intelligent following up on Peter de Villiers. A very welcome change apart from better on-field performances that; not having to hang your head in shame every time your national side's coach opens his mouth.


EDIT: Looking at that possible/likely Welsh line-up; those are some big boys in the backs there. I think HM will surely have to bring in Jaque Fourie and JP Pietersen at 13 and 14 rather than keep Engelbrecht and Le Roux in those positions despite the need for development of depth in experience; we can't afford the easy meters Engelbrecht would give away and Le Roux's last tackle count on wing reads 5 attempts, 5 missed! Granted he had to contain Savea and Ben Smith who are both riding pretty high ATM but still... I just expect more at this level.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

Gatland won't be telling his players that for sure. He's confident that Wales need to start producing the goods against the SH sides. I'm just hoping Wales turn up from the off and not in the last 30 mins that has been the case for so long.

 

[TRF_heineken]

For South Africa Meyer want's the roof open so they can play in horrendous conditions to get used to what the World Cup will be like.

I think it doesn't really matter if the roof is open or not, because it could be closed during the World Cup too... I think he should've asked to have it the same as it would be at the World Cup. Either way, is fine by me.

It will be interesting to see the match-ups when both teams are announced. if anything is to go by, it will be the same intense match as the 2011 pool match.

I just think the bokke under HM this last year has managed to make the gap bigger between the top 2 teams and the rest... This weekend is IMHO a big deal with all the tier 1 and 2 teams in action to see where everyone are.

 

[dullonien]

Some interesting noise that has come out of the Wales camp in the last 24 hours. Ian Evans is an injury doubt and Bradley Davies is his likely replacement to start if this is the case.

I hope that's not the case. Imo, Davies has been playing pretty poorly for quite a long while now. He's nowhere near the player he was during his breakthrough season, where he was a real carrying machine. I don't see what he brings any more other than a bit of ****le, which he often takes too far. I just feel he's still living off of that reputation he built at the beginning.

If Evans is out, I'd get Luke in there. I've heard he's playing quite well since his return from injury, although haven't seen him play myself.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

I think it doesn't really matter if the roof is open or not, because it could be closed during the World Cup too... I think he should've asked to have it the same as it would be at the World Cup. Either way, is fine by me.

It will be interesting to see the match-ups when both teams are announced. if anything is to go by, it will be the same intense match as the 2011 pool match.

I just think the bokke under HM this last year has managed to make the gap bigger between the top 2 teams and the rest... This weekend is IMHO a big deal with all the tier 1 and 2 teams in action to see where everyone are.

I think that perception which most of SA holds (myself included) will be tested this tour because lets have an objective look at our games under HM; our tour end of last year was successful but as tight as a successful tour could get particularly the 1 point win over England. Granted we've taken big steps forward both ITO our game and personnel since then which was a bit of a 'steady the ship' tour working with limited resources (time and players both).

The blow out games in June were at home with teams that aren't used to the Highveld so I don't know how far I'd go making predictions based on those particular matches, remember the Scotland game at the coast was an uncomfortable affair even though Poite gave Scotland license to do what they want at the breakdown as we'll probably and sadly see NH refs allow the BS at the breakdown this tour as well.

Then in the Rugby championship we established that we were still behind NZ and the return match in Argentina was again a close one. It looks like we seem to not be able to replicate the Highveld performances on the road apart from against Aus. There.. well Aus just lost to England playing more pedestrian than ever so I don't think we should read too much in our wins over Aussie this year.

So I'd say we should expect a very very VERY tough match here and that perception that we have some distance between us (with NZ leading) and the rest should be banned from our subconscious minds IMO lest it comes back and bite us because we all know us South Africans don't fare well with a favourites tag around our necks and we shouldn't be putting one there ourselves particularly if the opposition aren't. Our winning history against Wales should count for nothing; just this RC we beat Aus for the first time in Brisbane for how long- something like 40 years?...

 

[TRF_Cymro]

I disagree. Think we are better served with Davies starting. Club form with Wales does not always translate well. I take form with the Blues with a pinch of salt. Gatland knows what he's doing.

 

[dullonien]

I disagree. Think we are better served with Davies starting. Club form with Wales does not always translate well. I take form with the Blues with a pinch of salt. Gatland knows what he's doing.

Yeah, I agree that regional form isn't always the best indicator. But I haven't been overly impressed with him for Wales for a long time either. I honestly can't remember the last time he carried the ball with the sort of tenacity he did as a newcomer. Looks like he's put on a lot of bulk, which probably helps in other areas, but has limited his impact in the loose. Like you say though, I trust Gats, so if he does start, hopefully I'll be eating my words after the match.

 

[TRF_Cymro]

The Wales team to face South Africa in the opening Dove Men Series clash features one uncapped player with Ospreys wing Eli Walker named in the starting XV.
Walker will make his debut in a side which sees the return from injury of 2012 Grand Slam winning fly-half Rhys Priestland (Scarlets), and flanker Dan Lydiate (Racing Metro), who lines up for Wales for the first time since the summer of 2012.
Cardiff Blues prop Gethin Jenkins will win his 99th cap and is joined in the front row by the experienced duo of Richard Hibbard and Adam Jones (both Ospreys).
Bradley Davies (Blues) joins Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys) in the second-row and the back-row is an all British and Irish Lions' affair with Lydiate playing alongside Captain Sam Warburton (Blues) and Dragons' Toby Faletau.
Mike Phillips will partner Priestland at half-back and the midfield is made up of the Scarlets centre pairing of Scott Williams and Jonathan Davies.
Walker, 21, is joined by George North (Northampton Saints) on the wing, who himself made his debut against the Springboks three years ago, scoring a brace of tries. Cardiff Blues full-back Leigh Halfpenny wears fifteen.
The match against South Africa is the first of four autumn games at the Millennium Stadium and head coach Warren Gatland knows it is going to be a huge encounter on Saturday.
"We always say we like to test ourselves against the best and Saturday is going to be just that with a huge game against South Africa first up,†said Gatland.
"The Springboks arrive in the UK off the back of their impressive Rugby Championship campaign and we know that we need to start well on Saturday.
"We go into the series as Six Nations Champions but we are looking forward to testing ourselves against the southern hemisphere sides and showing what we are can do.
"Since we have been together, competition in the squad has been good and it is great to have both Rhys and Dan back available for us.
"Eli has impressed for his Region and whilst with us and it's a great opportunity for him to make his mark in a very experienced side.â€

Leigh Halfpenny (Blues), George North (Northampton Saints), Jonathan Davies (Scarlets), Scott Williams (Scarlets), Eli Walker (Ospreys), Rhys Priestland (Scarlets), Mike Phillips (Unattached), Gethin Jenkins (Blues), Richard Hibbard (Ospreys), Adam Jones (Ospreys), Bradley Davies (Blues), Alun Wyn Jones (Ospreys), Dan Lydiate (Racing Metro), Sam Warburton (Blues, Capt), Toby Faletau.
Replacements: Ken Owens (Scarlets), Paul James (Bath), Scott Andrews (Blues), Luke Charteris (Perpignan), Justin Tipuric (Ospreys) Lloyd Williams (Blues), James Hook (Perpignan), Liam Williams (Scarlets).

 

[j-dawg]

I have a feeling SA are going to blow away wales. So much pressure on Wales to win against the big boys.

 

[j'nuh]

What the heck?

No Biggar at all?

Also, Paul James is on fire and should be starting.
Bradley Davies shouldn't.
Tipuric should probably be starting.

 

[SomeOke]

Our winning history against Wales should count for nothing; just this RC we beat Aus for the first time in Brisbane for how long- something like 40 years?...

Not to mention the 2011 encounter was "technically" a Wales win, didn't one of the penalties go over and was not counted? It ended up hurting us a lot more thanks to Ireland beating Aus but still.

Should be close, I can't help but feel HM is taking a step back in terms of development. I think he's letting his fear of losing knee-cap the promising new talent that has been coming through, on the other hand perhaps winning momentum is more important. Also the squad hasn't actually been announced so I may be premature in this viewpoint.

Even more so than in the SH if our pack dominates (no easy task mind you) I feel we should win comfortably, unlike Aus or NZ where in some ways the creativity of their backs outmatches us, this will all come down to forwards. I'm not saying the saffer back line is better, just that I don't feel we are outmatched.