South Africa vs Wales - Twickenham (22 June)

[TRF_Olyy]

You can tell SA players don't play much rugby during the season in Japan and need a game like this to blow the cobwebs off

 

[dullonien]

Honestly we were about as **** as I expected. We somehow went into half time only a point behind which was a minor miracle in itself after being down to 13 at one stage in the first half and our scrum under huge pressure. Luckily SA looked rusty themselves.

Our attack is just abysmal though. @dirty harry summed it up well towards the end of the game. Game was lost, 21 points down, 7min. or so to go, ball in the SA half (which was a rare occurance) and Gareth Davies box kicks the ******* ball away! 'Twas a **** box kick and all! It's just pathetic, and has summed up our attacking play, all we have is a box kick, or pass it to the big bloke in the centre to run into 2 defenders waiting for him. It's just absolutely pathetic!

 

[Flankers' paradise]

Even though I thought Costelow played alright all things considered the midfield looked very lost at times. I think it was a cardinal error not to have Johnny Williams at 12 with Grady outside him to steady the ship and offer another dimension in attack. All wales seemed to have was send Grady into 2/3 defenders or kick for LW to compete

 

[dullonien]

Even though I thought Costelow played alright all things considered the midfield looked very lost at times. I think it was a cardinal error not to have Johnny Williams at 12 with Grady outside him to steady the ship and offer another dimension in attack. All wales seemed to have was send Grady into 2/3 defenders or kick for LW to compete

I thought Costellow was pretty poor tbh. But my issue isn't really with individuals atm, because I don't see how they can flourish in the systems (or lack of) that Wales are implementing atm, and this goes for all the 6N games too. It's always tricky behind a pack in full reverse in the scrum, but even off decent lineout ball we look clueless. There's no subtlety, there's no decoy runners, there's no real variation to the attack. On the rare ocasion they try to go wide, the pull back pass is so obvious, the reciever is under all sorts of pressure. This was evident right at the end, Beetham throwing a pooirish pass under huge pressure and Eddie James knocking on, is there any real surprise when they were under so much pressure?

I've noticed a similar trend with Ospreys over the last couple of seasons. They can sometimes execute the odd strike move off first phase, but as soon as they need to go through some phases they can often look bareft of ideas and shape. Any attempts at going wide often ends up with them conceding significant ground and forced into kicking the ball again.

Yes, there's a lack of quality of players in some (or many) positions, but even so there should be some semblance of an attacking identity! This comes from the coaches, and I just don't see even the remotest spark with Wales. We can't just keep trying to pressure sides and hope for mistakes to win matches, it just doesn't work, even vs the better 2nd tier sides.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Yes, there's a lack of quality of players in some (or many) positions, but even so there should be some semblance of an attacking identity! This comes from the coaches, and I just don't see even the remotest spark with Wales. We can't just keep trying to pressure sides and hope for mistakes to win matches, it just doesn't work, even vs the better 2nd tier sides.

And this is even more true when Gatland, rightly in my opinion, is saying things like "we're not focussing on results at the moment we're focussing on getting better"

What a great thing to say (honestly) no one expected us to win yesterday, and we likely won't win any games in Australia but what we should be ******* seeing is some signs of the team we want to be, style of play, some semblence in our attacking play.

You could argue we are, we're seeing box kicking and a 12 trucking it up. Honestly I'm so done with it all and I thought we did a lot better yesterday than I thought we would.

If we lose both games against Australia and take into 10 defeats in a row most managers would get sacked and that's the most frustrating thing for me at the moment, he's to safe in his position. Maybe he'll offer to resign again if we lose both games on tour, not that Walker and co will accept it as they think he's the best coach in the world. We need someone younger imo, I have big question marks over Gatlands man management and messaging. His communication fitted the culture perfectly back in 2008 but I just think this is one example of many where he's past his best now. I said when we signed him you should never go back, it basically never works out.

 

[dirty harry]

Even though I thought Costelow played alright all things considered the midfield looked very lost at times. I think it was a cardinal error not to have Johnny Williams at 12 with Grady outside him to steady the ship and offer another dimension in attack. All wales seemed to have was send Grady into 2/3 defenders or kick for LW to compete

Costelow looked alright? He missed a simple 3 points, missed touch out of hand, offered nothing ball in hand except to send Grady into traffic, was no running threat and dont get me started on his hiding in defence... he is a prem player at best.

I thought Grady looked ok at 12, his best performance in red by a mile, except well you know causing the first try. He cant make a decision in defence, and isnt good enough ball in hand for 13, not quick enough for int wing. His position is 12 or bust IMHO.

Defence looked toothless because of lack of ability from Costelow, even when we went out the back there was no faint, Kriel read it all day easily. Theres also no trust in him, going forward noone is chancing the break, and we accept contact, in defence players are trying to protect him.

 

[Welsh Exile]

Costelow looked alright? He missed a simple 3 points, missed touch out of hand, offered nothing ball in hand except to send Grady into traffic, was no running threat and dont get me started on his hiding in defence... he is a prem player at best.

I thought Grady looked ok at 12, his best performance in red by a mile, except well you know causing the first try. He cant make a decision in defence, and isnt good enough ball in hand for 13, not quick enough for int wing. His position is 12 or bust IMHO.

Defence looked toothless because of lack of ability from Costelow, even when we went out the back there was no faint, Kriel read it all day easily. Theres also no trust in him, going forward noone is chancing the break, and we accept contact, in defence players are trying to protect him.

I'm with you on Costelow but I think he's a gutsy player and he tries his best in defence, for the most part. I'll never question his commitment, just his ability.

 

[dirty harry]

I thought Costellow was pretty poor tbh. But my issue isn't really with individuals atm, because I don't see how they can flourish in the systems (or lack of) that Wales are implementing atm, and this goes for all the 6N games too. It's always tricky behind a pack in full reverse in the scrum, but even off decent lineout ball we look clueless. There's no subtlety, there's no decoy runners, there's no real variation to the attack. On the rare ocasion they try to go wide, the pull back pass is so obvious, the reciever is under all sorts of pressure. This was evident right at the end, Beetham throwing a pooirish pass under huge pressure and Eddie James knocking on, is there any real surprise when they were under so much pressure?

I've noticed a similar trend with Ospreys over the last couple of seasons. They can sometimes execute the odd strike move off first phase, but as soon as they need to go through some phases they can often look bareft of ideas and shape. Any attempts at going wide often ends up with them conceding significant ground and forced into kicking the ball again.

Yes, there's a lack of quality of players in some (or many) positions, but even so there should be some semblance of an attacking identity! This comes from the coaches, and I just don't see even the remotest spark with Wales. We can't just keep trying to pressure sides and hope for mistakes to win matches, it just doesn't work, even vs the better 2nd tier sides.

This is very accurate, but I actually dont think this is down to a lack of coaching ability or identity. I think it's just confidence. It's a young team, most of which play in teams getting beat EVERY week.

Your 100% right there is nothing to scare the defence, crashes are easily stopped, out the back is read easily, and wide plays end in disaster as much as they do victory. So the players are almost wincing when running these sets.

The old adage is, the attack falls in to place last, because you need to sort the team from the front out. Until we have a set peice, and some grunt up front we will never see anything other than mistakes in wider channels, and currently we spend most of our time trucking into contact losing the physical battle 90% of collisions.

What I find frustrating is that we continue to have this problem, for 5/6/7 games, without trying something new. Utilising the pick and go, coming around the corner, setting pods, pump faking would all slow the defence down and give us some breathing space. Gatland has used the pick very effectively in the past to confuse a defence like we did in Paris and Twickenham a number of years ago.

Once we slow the defence then we can play, like the kiwis do first 20 mins or so. They sacrifice posession while trying to spot weaknesses in the tight, wider channels, slow the rush and probe out wide. Sadly we have none of that skillset in this squad.

 

[dirty harry]

I'm with you on Costelow but I think he's a gutsy player and he tries his best in defence, for the most part. I'll never question his commitment, just his ability.

Tell that to the first try against us, he worked extremely hard not to get to the ball carrier!
But let's say he is committed, that's even sadder that hes that soft and a weakness at this level.
Currently I'd avoid a Cuthbert situation, and drop him for the season, let him play club rugby and use others. Hes clearly lacking confidence, hes almost shaking kicking out of hand. He should have been dropped after the Argentina 1/4 when he proved a game changer, and then we he lost to the dragons single handedly.

 

[dirty harry]

Ok ok ok I'm sick of whinging, positives out of the game:

- Grady looked better. Except for the glaring **** up for the first try he did ok defensively, and played for the team ball in hand, which is great to see.

- Bevan looked like an experienced operator. On debut I though he was fantastic, not perfect at all, but hes got a great delivery, and is cool and collected.

- Wainright is unreal that he can perform to such a high standard in such a poor team.

- I thought the pack were under powered but dealt with the scrum ok, even winning a few free kicks and pens.

- lineout went ok, especially considering personelle. Screech was actually far better than i was expecting, fair play to him!

- Defencively, what we conceded were very poor individual errors, system wise i feel like we are starting to turn a corner. It was a bit more nuanced than last few games. We still need to find people to run it properly, you cant hide players at int rugby.

- Liam William's still has something to offer, he gave us a platform when under pressure, and really helps Winnet. I genuinely fear for Winnets safety, he is so good but lacks power, pace, and agility, and gets folded in half EVERY time he touches the ball.

 

[Welsh Exile]

You're 100% right there is nothing to scare the defence,.

You know what keeps defences on their toes, even off slow ball? Out and out pace and a deadly step. If only we had a young 10 with those 2 attributes.

 

[dirty harry]

You know what keeps defences on their toes, even off slow ball? Out and out pace and a deadly step. If only we had a young 10 with those 2 attributes.

there isnt a 10 in the world who beats players from first receiver, let alone off slow ball or first phase.

let's be honest, we are just killing the clock u til De Beer becomes qualified, hes easily the best 10 in Wales this season.

 

[Welsh Exile]

there isnt a 10 in the world who beats players from first receiver, let alone off slow ball or first phase.

let's be honest, we are just killing the clock u til De Beer becomes qualified, hes easily the best 10 in Wales this season.

Mo'unga does and a few others do.

Anyway, the point wasn't about beating players or breaking lines from first receiver it's about keeping defences guessing and on their toes. It was one of the things that stopped Biggar from being an elite 10. Defences knew what he was doing with the ball in his hands.

De beer is to old now. Won't qualify until he's nearly in a retirement home. I also don't think he's anything that special so even if he was qualified now I wouldn't see him as anything more than a 3rd choice.

 

[Saintjay]

there isnt a 10 in the world who beats players from first receiver, let alone off slow ball or first phase.

let's be honest, we are just killing the clock u til De Beer becomes qualified, hes easily the best 10 in Wales this season.

How longs he got? I thought it was 5 years and he's not been in Wales that long has he.

 

[Welsh Exile]

How longs he got? I thought it was 5 years and he's not been in Wales that long has he.

You'll forgive @dirty harry he has a soft spot for slow average rugby players

*cough Adam Beard cough*

 

[Welsh Exile]

De Beer isn't even a poor man's Biggar. He has all of his weaknesses and none of his strengths.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

De Beer isn't even a poor man's Biggar. He has all of his weaknesses and none of his strengths.

Tbf that sounds like Biggar since like 2021

 

[Welsh Exile]

Tbf that sounds like Biggar since like 2021

I think you need to take your meds, get some sleep and apologise to me tomorrow.

 

[Saintjay]

Dan Biggar goes and Saints win the league with a 22 year old

 

[Welsh Exile]

Dan Biggar goes and Saints win the league with a 22 year old

Laid the foundations, mate. I'm sure his leaving speech was also their main inspiration to winning the league. I heard that no name 22 year old also credited Biggar being the sole person responsible for his good form.