England Saxons to tour South Africa in June

[Which Tyler]

That's not true at all. Nowell is faster than people on here claim. He may not be the fastest over 100 meter sprint but his acceleration over the 10-20 meter mark seems the same as every other winger.

Nowell is one of the best wingers in the premiership, he has shown that time and time again.

What bit isn't true? All of it? or did I imagine him being burned over 30-odd metres by both Mike Brown and Ben Youngs (my first active claim)?
He may be faster than people claim - partly because people like hyperbole and partly because people have different opinions - he's also a damn sight slower than "people on here" claim.
100 metre sprint is basically irrelevant in rugby terms; and his acceleration over the 10-20 mark is not the same as every other winger (none of them are the same as each other; Jack is amongst the slowest). Acceleration over 10-20 metre mark is also fairly irrelevant; especially if you absolutely skinned over 30. 3-5 metres is extremely important (and where Jason Robinson shone, despite not being particularly quick over 30-40m); and top-end pace is extremely important; the first gets you past the tackler and the 3rd keeps you ahead of the chasers until the try line or they've given up.
Nowell is very good at premiership level; fortunately, absolutely nobody has claimed otherwise.

Isn't it fun to present opinions as facts - it's almost as if it stifles debate and rubbishes anyone who disagrees.

 

[FLOBALOB]

What bit isn't true? All of it? or did I imagine him being burned over 30-odd metres by both Mike Brown and Ben Youngs (my first active claim)?
He may be faster than people claim - partly because people like hyperbole and partly because people have different opinions - he's also a damn sight slower than "people on here" claim.
100 metre sprint is basically irrelevant in rugby terms; and his acceleration over the 10-20 mark is not the same as every other winger (none of them are the same as each other; Jack is amongst the slowest). Acceleration over 10-20 metre mark is also fairly irrelevant; especially if you absolutely skinned over 30. 3-5 metres is extremely important (and where Jason Robinson shone, despite not being particularly quick over 30-40m); and top-end pace is extremely important; the first gets you past the tackler and the 3rd keeps you ahead of the chasers until the try line or they've given up.
Nowell is very good at premiership level; fortunately, absolutely nobody has claimed otherwise.

Isn't it fun to present opinions as facts - it's almost as if it stifles debate and rubbishes anyone who disagrees.

To virtually imply that Ben Youngs and Mike Brown are faster than Nowell is ludicrous.
As has been said , the number of times a winger can use his top speed in internationals ,over any distance more than 15m, is very small, making it virtually irrelevant. To pick a winger solely on being the fastest would be crazy.
Nowells all round game more than compensates for any perceived lack of speed.
He beat piutau and Halai in a sprint a few weeks ago.

 

[Maverick1987]

What bit isn't true? All of it? or did I imagine him being burned over 30-odd metres by both Mike Brown and Ben Youngs (my first active claim)?
He may be faster than people claim - partly because people like hyperbole and partly because people have different opinions - he's also a damn sight slower than "people on here" claim.
100 metre sprint is basically irrelevant in rugby terms; and his acceleration over the 10-20 mark is not the same as every other winger (none of them are the same as each other; Jack is amongst the slowest). Acceleration over 10-20 metre mark is also fairly irrelevant; especially if you absolutely skinned over 30. 3-5 metres is extremely important (and where Jason Robinson shone, despite not being particularly quick over 30-40m); and top-end pace is extremely important; the first gets you past the tackler and the 3rd keeps you ahead of the chasers until the try line or they've given up.
Nowell is very good at premiership level; fortunately, absolutely nobody has claimed otherwise.

Isn't it fun to present opinions as facts - it's almost as if it stifles debate and rubbishes anyone who disagrees.

Your talking nonsense I'm afraid . Your opinion is valid of course as is everyone's but the "facts" you are bringing up are simply untrue . I have never seen Jack get burned by Youngs or Brown . He might not be the fastest but he makes up for it with his great rugby brain and fast feet . Jonny May is a perfect example of someone with supreme physical attributes but about as much rugby brain as my 2 year old daughter . He doesn't know when to go for the corner or when to try to beat players, he can't catch the ball, he can't communicate with others and his positioning is quite frankly a joke . Imo Jack should play FB but I think this year he's been the best winger in the premiership

 

[Geordie]

Brilliant post.

Nowell is good at making the initial few metres; probably a combination of speed off the mark, elusiveness and balance. But I wouldn't be backing him in an open field foot race against the top international boys.

The irony is that one of our Greatest is Jason Robinson, and he wasn't electric past say 40m. Its was his early stuff, his balance and his step etc that caused the damage.

Nowell is not at that level but is more that style of player.

I think he's set in stone on that wing. Especially after last weekends performance which was top class.

 

[welshglory]

If Nowell is going to be a work rate type of winger then he needs to improve his skillset and decision making.
Look at Drew Mitchell, Josh Lewsey, Cory Jane and Tommy Bowe as examples of players who are quite similar in profile. Still some way behind. So needs to to work on it to make up for his lack of out and out pace and bosh size.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

The irony is that one of our Greatest is Jason Robinson, and he wasn't electric past say 40m. Its was his early stuff, his balance and his step etc that caused the damage.

Nowell is not at that level but is more that style of player.

I think he's set in stone on that wing. Especially after last weekends performance which was top class.

Yes, but Robinson was so good that you could afford to overlook a bit of what he couldn't do. As you say, Nowell isn't in that league.

Lots of people have said that Nowell has been the best wing in the AP. Wouldn't disagree. But what makes excellence at club and international levels aren't necessarily the same things.

He's excellent but I'd rather see him at FB than wing.

 

[Peat]

I have no objections to Ashton's actions here.

The Saxons is a great place for a player who has never played for England before to get some exposure to the international game and for the coaches to learn.

But the thought of the Saxons as a pathway towards England has become very muddied. Lots of players straight-up skip the Saxons. About 1/3 of the current England squad did. And although 2/3 did go through the Saxons, it is mainly players that developed over the long-term, who played for the Saxons when they weren't quite ready. Players like Farrell were deemed not to need that step. So if players can go straight into the England squad without going through the Saxons, what value does the Saxons bring? If it is an important test that players must go through, why do some players never play for the Saxons?

For some players such as Cipriani and Sharples, it has become an international cul-de-sac. Vague promises of England keep them interested, but Saxons isn't really giving them anything.

Ashton got it into his head that if he was selected for England, he could kick-off his international career again. It would have been a big career move, and playing for England is always an honour. The Saxons? It holds no guarantees, and being there means next-to-nothing. If he's the best winger come September, he will be in the AIs and his Saxons no-show won't change that. tbh, I would have made exactly the same call as Ashton, as would many people, I would think.

I think we should re-purpose the Saxons as an U24s team, a chance for the England coach to learn about the strengths and weaknesses of younger players, particularly of guys like Genge, who Jones may have never seen, and on which England may have very little data.

The Saxons improve no one and the games they play are wildly different to full tests. They were coached by Jon Callard until recently, how's that for pointless?

The four things I can see a player gaining from Saxons duty are

1) Exposure to the international touring duty (pointless for Ashton)
2) Getting to play with strangers in the England game plan (useful assuming the game plan is the same between the two groups)
3) The ability to make a positive impression on a member of the England coaching staff (invaluable if Hepher becomes backs/attack coach, not so much if he doesn't)
4) First dibs on going to the seniors if there's an injury (potentially invaluable if does happen, probably won't)

It's a real hard grind. I completely understand any player, particularly the senior ones, not wanting to be there.

But where I think the difference between my opinion, and a lot of other opinions, is that if the coach wants you there, you're there. If you want to play for England, don't say say no to the England coach. The only way into England is to take every single opportunity that comes, every half-opportunity and sniff, as it's really hard to get in for those on the outside. Which is how it should be. I fully understand anyone who doesn't want to keep doing that over and over... but if they don't, the door's over there.

Sure, if Ashton is really totally absolutely the outstanding English winger next AIs its likely it will be forgotten, but what's the odds on him being substantially better next season than he was this? This season didn't get him into the touring squad for Jones and now Rokoduguni, Wade and Lewington get the chance to press claims while Jones wonders whether Ashton really wants it, is humble enough to learn (remember how Yarde has great coachability) etc.etc.

Are people really telling me that if they were Eddie Jones they wouldn't hold this against Ashton?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I've read that Ashton made the decision in consultation with Jones. Then again I've read that he didn't.

The "tour" is 2 games over the course of a week. If he is going to become a Dad around that period is anyone really expecting him to jet out, back and out again over a couple of days and be on top of his game? Seriously.

The Saxons last played in Jan 15 so any talk of a structured pathway is rubbish. I wish they would be used more as half the fun is seeing how emerging players handle a step up. I know other unions canned A teams on grounds of cost, but I'm sure there must be a way. Fielding them against full tier 2 teams feels like a win win for instance.

 

[johnmac99]

What bit isn't true? All of it? or did I imagine him being burned over 30-odd metres by both Mike Brown and Ben Youngs (my first active claim)?

In whichever game this alleged 'burning' took place, it wasn't the 6N game against Wales, so if you wish us to accept it as a 'fact' then you need to identify in which game it took place. Otherwise we will have think it was in your imagination.

As you say "Isn't it fun to present opinions as facts - it's almost as if it stifles debate and rubbishes anyone who disagrees".

 

[Which Tyler]

To virtually imply that Ben Youngs and Mike Brown are faster than Nowell is ludicrous.

Your talking nonsense I'm afraid . Your opinion is valid of course as is everyone's but the "facts" you are bringing up are simply untrue.

You're both right - an utterly preposterous thought process and I apologise unreservedly; it was against Ireland, not Wales:
Joseph kicks the ball on England's 22; Brown and Nowell pretty level on his shoulder; Youngs out of shot and fairly well behind the ball.

18m later Brown is categorically ahead of Nowell, Youngs has caught them both; Farrell is up with them (was offside in the first frame); Robshaw is starting to drop away.

10m on and the distance between them has changed minimally - when placing the ovals, I did have to separate Nowell a little further than Brown & Youngs, but that could easily be camera angle. JJ has overtaken Robshaw.

Irish 10m line; Nowell has dropped back further; his pace much of a muchness with Farrell - incidentally, the ball is passed the Irish 22; and they're all still flat out. JJ closing a little; Robshaw dropping to the edge of shot.

Irish 22m line; Youngs comfortably ahead of all of them, Farrell and Nowell still neck and neck; ball still not fielded yet [is 5m ahead of Irish FB], but I'll allow that the breaks have started to be applied. out of shot - JJ has faded slower and towards the touch line to cover a scrambled clearance.



My apologies for taking my time to put it together - I'd though it was against Wales; so watched through that match (fast forwarding on Youtube is a right pain in the arse) - then the same with the France match; then the Ireland one until I found the event. It was also over a longer distance than my memory from 3 months ago claimed - snapshots taking place over 18; 10; 10 & 18 metres; I will also note that Brown had a touch more momentum as of the first pic; though not that much (IMO).

In whichever game this alleged 'burning' took place, it wasn't the 6N game against Wales, so if you wish us to accept it as a 'fact' then you need to identify in which game it took place. Otherwise we will have think it was in your imagination.

As you say "Isn't it fun to present opinions as facts - it's almost as if it stifles debate and rubbishes anyone who disagrees".

I presented 1 recollection; and specified it for anyone to check against their memory, or recordings if they could be bothered. I didn't claim it as an absolute and everyone must be wrong because I said it - that's what's been claimed against me. My recollection was wrongly placed; but broadly accurate in its content. Everything else in my original post was given and presented as opinion; my follow-up post continued in that theme.
At worst; you could say that my memory was faulty - at no stage did I present an opinion as a fact, or rubbish someone else's opinion, or them selves for holding said opinion. I certainly don't regard holding an opinion that a very fast SH is faster than a mediocre paced FB or fairly slow winger is extra-ordinary enough to require an extra-ordinary amount of proof, rather than just chalking it down to a matter of opinion and acknowledging that different people are allowed different opinions.
ETA: Oh, I can also be accused of hyperbole - but hey, this is the internet, and everyone does it; I freely admitted as much earlier. I'd also claim mitigation here that camera angles do exacerbate the extra speed of Brown and Youngs; though they still cover more ground in the same time, going by pitch markings - would account for some of the hyperbole.

 

[johnmac99]

You're both right - an utterly preposterous thought process and I apologise unreservedly; it was against Ireland, not Wales:
Joseph kicks the ball on England's 22; Brown and Nowell pretty level on his shoulder; Youngs out of shot and fairly well behind the ball.
View attachment 4311
18m later Brown is categorically ahead of Nowell, Youngs has caught them both; Farrell is up with them (was offside in the first frame); Robshaw is starting to drop away.
View attachment 4310
10m on and the distance between them has changed minimally - when placing the ovals, I did have to separate Nowell a little further than Brown & Youngs, but that could easily be camera angle. JJ has overtaken Robshaw.
View attachment 4309
Irish 10m line; Nowell has dropped back further; his pace much of a muchness with Farrell - incidentally, the ball is passed the Irish 22; and they're all still flat out. JJ closing a little; Robshaw dropping to the edge of shot.
View attachment 4308
Irish 22m line; Youngs comfortably ahead of all of them, Farrell and Nowell still neck and neck; ball still not fielded yet [is 5m ahead of Irish FB], but I'll allow that the breaks have started to be applied. out of shot - JJ has faded slower and towards the touch line to cover a scrambled clearance.
View attachment 4307


My apologies for taking my time to put it together - I'd though it was against Wales; so watched through that match (fast forwarding on Youtube is a right pain in the arse) - then the same with the France match; then the Ireland one until I found the event. It was also over a longer distance than my memory from 3 months ago claimed - snapshots taking place over 18; 10; 10 & 18 metres; I will also note that Brown had a touch more momentum as of the first pic; though not that much (IMO).


I presented 1 recollection; and specified it for anyone to check against their memory, or recordings if they could be bothered. I didn't claim it as an absolute and everyone must be wrong because I said it - that's what's been claimed against me. My recollection was wrongly placed; but broadly accurate in its content. Everything else in my original post was given and presented as opinion; my follow-up post continued in that theme.
At worst; you could say that my memory was faulty - at no stage did I present an opinion as a fact, or rubbish someone else's opinion, or them selves for holding said opinion. I certainly don't regard holding an opinion that a very fast SH is faster than a mediocre paced FB or fairly slow winger is extra-ordinary enough to require an extra-ordinary amount of proof, rather than just chalking it down to a matter of opinion and acknowledging that different people are allowed different opinions.
ETA: Oh, I can also be accused of hyperbole - but hey, this is the internet, and everyone does it; I freely admitted as much earlier. I'd also claim mitigation here that camera angles do exacerbate the extra speed of Brown and Youngs; though they still cover more ground in the same time, going by pitch markings - would account for some of the hyperbole.

Well if that's your proof that Nowell isn't fast enough, it's poor indeed. You haven't convinced me, so I'll continue to support his selection as a winger for England, even if I think he would make a better 13.

 

[Which Tyler]

No, it's not.
It's my proof that he was out-paced by Brown and Youngs on one occasion - as demanded.
I made an observation that I recalled a specific event. I was told that it was "ludicrous" "nonsense" "simply untrue" and that "it was in your imagination".
If you want to take evidence that the event took place as meaning that it didn't, then that's on you. If you want to draw different conclusions from said observation, or try to make it say something that wasn't claimed; that's your prerogative and is fine.

I am of the opinion that Jack Nowell is too slow to be a top-class international winger. This is opinion; there is no right or wrong answer.
I am of the opinion that Jack Nowell is a very good rugby player; who would be better suited to OC or FB. This is also opinion; there is no right or wrong answer.
I presented one "fact" - which was that I had a recollection. I was called a liar. I have provided my evidence; and pointed out mitigation (such as camera angles exaggerating the speed difference, Brown's extra momentum at the start etc). We're allowed our own opinions, but facts are factual (and were a right pain in the arse to gather).
I'd also like to point out that I haven't demonstrated any lack of respect for those arguing against me - it would have been nice if the same went the other way around.

 

[brokenoses]

Until Nowell's perceived lack of pace becomes a problem, then for me it is a non-issue. Ashton's defence, Johnny May's defence, Brad Barrett's attack, Tom Youngs throwing, all of these things caused big problems during matches time and time again. I can think of no situation where Nowell has let England or Exeter down by not running fast enough. All I can recall is defenders beaten, tries scored, gainlines broken, strong rucking, strong defence and the odd turnover. Why look for a problem with his pace when no display has suggested there is one? People give the example of Vakatawa passing Nowell in the England vs France match as an example of his lack of pace when really Nowell was having to compensate for the poor positioning of the England backline by covering for them and still managed to put in a massive defensive display stopping certain tries on more than one occasion.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Tyler, although there are differences in pace at the very start- which as you've said can probably be attributed to momentum, etc, by the last couple of pictures I'd assume the players are starting to form a cohesive defensive line, adjusting their speed accordingly. We've all seen average full backs made to seem like Shane Williams by lone defenders careering towards them.

Nowell is definitely a little slower than Watson, but it hasn't been a problem at international level. During the Wales game in this Six Nations North got on his outside shoulder a couple of times, but Nowell was left exposed by his defence- and being able to catch George North is a bonus for an international winger, not an essential. He more than makes up for it with nearly every facet of his game imo.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

No, it's not.
It's my proof that he was out-paced by Brown and Youngs on one occasion - as demanded.
I made an observation that I recalled a specific event. I was told that it was "ludicrous" "nonsense" "simply untrue" and that "it was in your imagination".
If you want to take evidence that the event took place as meaning that it didn't, then that's on you. If you want to draw different conclusions from said observation, or try to make it say something that wasn't claimed; that's your prerogative and is fine.

I am of the opinion that Jack Nowell is too slow to be a top-class international winger. This is opinion; there is no right or wrong answer.
I am of the opinion that Jack Nowell is a very good rugby player; who would be better suited to OC or FB. This is also opinion; there is no right or wrong answer.
I presented one "fact" - which was that I had a recollection. I was called a liar. I have provided my evidence; and pointed out mitigation (such as camera angles exaggerating the speed difference, Brown's extra momentum at the start etc). We're allowed our own opinions, but facts are factual (and were a right pain in the arse to gather).
I'd also like to point out that I haven't demonstrated any lack of respect for those arguing against me - it would have been nice if the same went the other way around.

He might of been going all out. Just one poor example doesn't prove anything. As said previously, the other week he out paced frank halia and Charles pilatu (sorry about the spelling). So if he's faster than an all black surly he's fast enough.

Or maybe one case of outpacing something doesn't prove anything.

 

[Maverick1987]

You're both right - an utterly preposterous thought process and I apologise unreservedly; it was against Ireland, not Wales:
Joseph kicks the ball on England's 22; Brown and Nowell pretty level on his shoulder; Youngs out of shot and fairly well behind the ball.
View attachment 4311
18m later Brown is categorically ahead of Nowell, Youngs has caught them both; Farrell is up with them (was offside in the first frame); Robshaw is starting to drop away.
View attachment 4310
10m on and the distance between them has changed minimally - when placing the ovals, I did have to separate Nowell a little further than Brown & Youngs, but that could easily be camera angle. JJ has overtaken Robshaw.
View attachment 4309
Irish 10m line; Nowell has dropped back further; his pace much of a muchness with Farrell - incidentally, the ball is passed the Irish 22; and they're all still flat out. JJ closing a little; Robshaw dropping to the edge of shot.
View attachment 4308
Irish 22m line; Youngs comfortably ahead of all of them, Farrell and Nowell still neck and neck; ball still not fielded yet [is 5m ahead of Irish FB], but I'll allow that the breaks have started to be applied. out of shot - JJ has faded slower and towards the touch line to cover a scrambled clearance.
View attachment 4307


My apologies for taking my time to put it together - I'd though it was against Wales; so watched through that match (fast forwarding on Youtube is a right pain in the arse) - then the same with the France match; then the Ireland one until I found the event. It was also over a longer distance than my memory from 3 months ago claimed - snapshots taking place over 18; 10; 10 & 18 metres; I will also note that Brown had a touch more momentum as of the first pic; though not that much (IMO).


I presented 1 recollection; and specified it for anyone to check against their memory, or recordings if they could be bothered. I didn't claim it as an absolute and everyone must be wrong because I said it - that's what's been claimed against me. My recollection was wrongly placed; but broadly accurate in its content. Everything else in my original post was given and presented as opinion; my follow-up post continued in that theme.
At worst; you could say that my memory was faulty - at no stage did I present an opinion as a fact, or rubbish someone else's opinion, or them selves for holding said opinion. I certainly don't regard holding an opinion that a very fast SH is faster than a mediocre paced FB or fairly slow winger is extra-ordinary enough to require an extra-ordinary amount of proof, rather than just chalking it down to a matter of opinion and acknowledging that different people are allowed different opinions.
ETA: Oh, I can also be accused of hyperbole - but hey, this is the internet, and everyone does it; I freely admitted as much earlier. I'd also claim mitigation here that camera angles do exacerbate the extra speed of Brown and Youngs; though they still cover more ground in the same time, going by pitch markings - would account for some of the hyperbole.

May could outpace every single player in that field yet he isn't as good as any of the wingers on show . Nowell has far more to his armoury than just pace that's why he's the better player . I've explained on my last post why he's better than May . It's like suggesting Lionel Messi isn't as good as Raheem Sterling because he's not as fast . It's simply absurd .....

 

[Peat]

Nowell is definitely a little slower than Watson, but it hasn't been a problem at international level. During the Wales game in this Six Nations North got on his outside shoulder a couple of times, but Nowell was left exposed by his defence- and being able to catch George North is a bonus for an international winger, not an essential. He more than makes up for it with nearly every facet of his game imo.

It may not be a essential, but it's not a mere bonus either. A winger who can't catch George North really has to be bringing the goods elsewhere for me because we've got a fair few guys who could.

Can't see the controversy in saying Nowell's a bit slow for an international winger. He is, surely we've all noticed it. Don't think its outrageous to suggest Ben Youngs is faster than him either, Ben Youngs is really bloody quick.

I'd agree that Nowell's probably not quite up to being a top international winger and I'd rather see him at 15 or 13. But then, I agree with the same statement when made about a great many of the England team, and he deserves his place for now. Hope he either improves or someone relieves him of it though.

 

[Maverick1987]

It may not be a essential, but it's not a mere bonus either. A winger who can't catch George North really has to be bringing the goods elsewhere for me because we've got a fair few guys who could.

Can't see the controversy in saying Nowell's a bit slow for an international winger. He is, surely we've all noticed it. Don't think its outrageous to suggest Ben Youngs is faster than him either, Ben Youngs is really bloody quick.

I'd agree that Nowell's probably not quite up to being a top international winger and I'd rather see him at 15 or 13. But then, I agree with the same statement when made about a great many of the England team, and he deserves his place for now. Hope he either improves or someone relieves him of it though.

Personally I'd like to see Nowell take over from Brown in the 15 shirt eventually as well

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Personally I'd like to see Nowell take over from Brown in the 15 shirt eventually as well

And then Addison in Nowell's shirt - can do everything Nowell can (including play centre and cover 15) but is noticeably faster, and also bigger.

 

[johnmac99]

No, it's not.
It's my proof that he was out-paced by Brown and Youngs on one occasion - as demanded.
I made an observation that I recalled a specific event. I was told that it was "ludicrous" "nonsense" "simply untrue" and that "it was in your imagination".
If you want to take evidence that the event took place as meaning that it didn't, then that's on you. If you want to draw different conclusions from said observation, or try to make it say something that wasn't claimed; that's your prerogative and is fine.

I am of the opinion that Jack Nowell is too slow to be a top-class international winger. This is opinion; there is no right or wrong answer.
I am of the opinion that Jack Nowell is a very good rugby player; who would be better suited to OC or FB. This is also opinion; there is no right or wrong answer.
I presented one "fact" - which was that I had a recollection. I was called a liar. I have provided my evidence; and pointed out mitigation (such as camera angles exaggerating the speed difference, Brown's extra momentum at the start etc). We're allowed our own opinions, but facts are factual (and were a right pain in the arse to gather).
I'd also like to point out that I haven't demonstrated any lack of respect for those arguing against me - it would have been nice if the same went the other way around.

I wasn't aware that I had disrespected you in any way and certainly feel you are entitled to your opinion even if I disagree with you.