England Saxons to tour South Africa in June

[welshglory]

If i was to describe Ashton as a player i would say he is a Doug Howlett lite, or Mark Jones upgrade.
He has an amazing ability to support the attacking play, and as some have said he is a smart player overall in terms of following an attacking and defensive system.

However he is a straight line rugby league runner which is why he focuses on breaking the attacking line rather than using space, he's also getting old and has probably reached his peak.

Physically he isn't very impressive apart from finding weaknesses in the defence and exploiting them on their weak shoulder, or flat footed defenders. He is also not very strong in direct contact.
Defensively we all know that he lacks commitment and discipline, playing to a system is all well and good but if you don't have the mental capacity to stop the opposition with all you've got and you lack physical output, then there's only so much you can compensate that with.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

If i was to describe Ashton as a player i would say he is a Doug Howlett lite, or Mark Jones upgrade.
He has an amazing ability to support the attacking play, and as some have said he is a smart player overall in terms of following an attacking and defensive system.

However he is a straight line rugby league runner which is why he focuses on breaking the attacking line rather than using space, he's also getting old and has probably reached his peak.

Physically he isn't very impressive apart from finding weaknesses in the defence and exploiting them on their weak shoulder, or flat footed defenders. He is also not very strong in direct contact.
Defensively we all know that he lacks commitment and discipline, playing to a system is all well and good but if you don't have the mental capacity to stop the opposition with all you've got and you lack physical output, then there's only so much you can compensate that with.

Fair analysis. I'd also add that I would back him against any other English winger to finish a half chance. Knowing your way to the try line isn't the be all and end all. But it doesn't half help.

Out of curiosity I wonder how many of the people having a crack at Ashton's defence support Ford for the 10 shirt.

 

[ncurd]

Out of curiosity I wonder how many of the people having a crack at Ashton's defence support Ford for the 10 shirt.

When was the last time Fords at international level was directly culpable for try being scored for his defensive work (the charge down doesn't count)? Or even at club level.

Ford's rubbish but hes manageable Ashton far less so as hes more likely to exposed.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

If Ashton's dropped out because he's sulking then that'll be the end of his international career (if it wasn't over already).
Compare him to Cipriani who seems like he'd be ecstatic just to hold tackle bags for the u20s, he wants to be involved with England so much.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

If Ashton's dropped out because he's sulking then that'll be the end of his international career (if it wasn't over already).
Compare him to Cipriani who seems like he'd be ecstatic just to hold tackle bags for the u20s, he wants to be involved with England so much.

Wonder if this is a ego test for a few players

 

[Maverick1987]

If Ashton's dropped out because he's sulking then that'll be the end of his international career (if it wasn't over already).
Compare him to Cipriani who seems like he'd be ecstatic just to hold tackle bags for the u20s, he wants to be involved with England so much.

100% ! Cipriani's attitude has been exemplary . He will see the Saxons tour as a chance to show Eddie what he's got and he will be playing behind a huge set of forwards so hopefully he will get the platform to perform

 

[johnmac99]

Fair analysis. I'd also add that I would back him against any other English winger to finish a half chance. Knowing your way to the try line isn't the be all and end all. But it doesn't half help.

Out of curiosity I wonder how many of the people having a crack at Ashton's defence support Ford for the 10 shirt.

Nowell and Watson are as good if not better at finishing a half-chance and have so much more to offer. May is also a good finisher.

BTW I think Ford's defence is OK, Farrells is better.

 

[Geordie]

Very true,
I'd have Wilson in the EPS or not at all.

PDJ is 30, as well, so not really developing.
Who's the young Newcastle prop we capped to stop Ireland pinching him? Was his name Wilson?
Don't think I've seen him much this season (injured?) but I was really impressed with him in the past, especially considering his age.

Jeeze, just looked on the Aviva site and Scott Wilson's only got 35mins off of the bench this season. Any Falcons fans shed any light on him?

He's been injured pretty much the entire season , as has Jon Welsh which royally screwed us as we only had Vea fit (although he has played well)

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Im very concerned about the number of "non English" in all of our squads.

Some have been here a long time like Manu, Hartley etc...but players like Armand, Lees?? Really?

If you think about who potentially is coming in....Harrison, Armand, Lees, Ewers, Nathan Hughes after the summer, Teo.....its getting a bit alarming.

 

[welshglory]

Nowell and Watson are as good if not better at finishing a half-chance and have so much more to offer. May is also a good finisher.

BTW I think Ford's defence is OK, Farrells is better.

I would argue that finishing is one of Nowell's main work on's. He isn't as clinical as he should be at international level, but the good thing is that's something that Jonny May also struggled with when he first came onto the scene for England, so it can be improved!

Marland Yarde will be pushing Nowell a lot i reckon, he will be under Jones' watchful eye in training and versus Wales.

Watson is an international class finisher, borderline on world class. He is undroppable for you guys at the moment.

 

[j'nuh]

He's been injured pretty much the entire season , as has Jon Welsh which royally screwed us as we only had Vea fit (although he has played well)

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Im very concerned about the number of "non English" in all of our squads.

Some have been here a long time like Manu, Hartley etc...but players like Armand, Lees?? Really?

If you think about who potentially is coming in....Harrison, Armand, Lees, Ewers, Nathan Hughes after the summer, Teo.....its getting a bit alarming.

Good point on Harrison. He was born in Bolton, which is practically in Lancashire, which makes him more evil than English.

 

[welshglory]

He's been injured pretty much the entire season , as has Jon Welsh which royally screwed us as we only had Vea fit (although he has played well)

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Im very concerned about the number of "non English" in all of our squads.

Some have been here a long time like Manu, Hartley etc...but players like Armand, Lees?? Really?

If you think about who potentially is coming in....Harrison, Armand, Lees, Ewers, Nathan Hughes after the summer, Teo.....its getting a bit alarming.

If the RFU wanted to use the eligibility rules to their advantage then they wouldn't cap these residency players.

However for it to be an advantage, they would have to change the definition of an English qualified player in terms of EQP payments though so that residency players are only EQP eligible for clubs if they are capped by England or the Saxons (obviously there would be minimum age limit).

By these players not being recognised as English unless they are capped, the RFU could end up giving away less money to the clubs

Not sure how legal that would be though.

 

[Geordie]

Good point on Harrison. He was born in Bolton, which is practically in Lancashire, which makes him more evil than English.

Well that should definitely make him ineligible

I appreciate theres loads of variations - I actually wasn't aware Harrison was born here so ill take that one back.

Others have been here from young so that's not even in question (Manu, Hartley etc), but I just think we need to watch how many players, like Lees, Armands, Paterson (a few seasons back) etc etc that we are trying out and bringing in.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I would argue that finishing is one of Nowell's main work on's. He isn't as clinical as he should be at international level, but the good thing is that's something that Jonny May also struggled with when he first came onto the scene for England, so it can be improved!

Marland Yarde will be pushing Nowell a lot i reckon, he will be under Jones' watchful eye in training and versus Wales.

Watson is an international class finisher, borderline on world class. He is undroppable for you guys at the moment.

Totally agree on Watson. And on Nowell, where I'd also say that he's not fast enough for an international winger either. Certainly not quick enough to get himself out of trouble the way Watson can. When fit May joins Watson as an automatic pick in my book. Nowell at 15 with those two on the wings would be OK.

As for Ford's defence, the extra yard or two that it takes him to stop people or the flanker covering for him can be the origins of space on the outside. Yes a winger can be obviously exposed, but you also have to understand why that's happening.

 

[j'nuh]

I don't mind too much the players that come over for the country, rather than the international game. Those that come and set up a life in the U.K., raise their family here, want to integrate into the country and so on. The system works for these people, and I'm happy with lax eligibility rules letting these players play for their adopted country.

What I don't like are those players who treat their adopted country more like an extended holiday than a home. The players that start to become international quality, and then swan around the globe looking for the country in which they will fit into, and when they are finished there, will continue to chase the money into their older years, before going back to their "original country". It will be a shame if the residency rules tighten to the detriment of the above group of players, just to keep out these mercs.

 

[TRF_stormer2010]

Reading through these posts makes me sad we don't get the same sort of feedback from those involved around the SA 'A' side. No point in us speculating as we havn't had any indication of how our organizers/selectors/coaches view these matches and what sort of criteria they'll be using ITO selections. The whole thing could turn out to be something of a chance missed as I fear we aren't taking it seriously at all but I hope I'm wrong. It'll be useless for England as well if we push a 'nothing' team in and no-one can read anything from any of the matches.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Teimana Harrison was born in New Zealand, not England.
Unless you're talking about Ross Harrison? Though I'm not sure why he'd come up with talk about EQP

 

[j'nuh]

Oh yeah, my bad. It's the Saxons thread so my mind went to Ross rather than Teimana.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I don't mind too much the players that come over for the country, rather than the international game. Those that come and set up a life in the U.K., raise their family here, want to integrate into the country and so on. The system works for these people, and I'm happy with lax eligibility rules letting these players play for their adopted country.

What I don't like are those players who treat their adopted country more like an extended holiday than a home. The players that start to become international quality, and then swan around the globe looking for the country in which they will fit into, and when they are finished there, will continue to chase the money into their older years, before going back to their "original country". It will be a shame if the residency rules tighten to the detriment of the above group of players, just to keep out these mercs.

Fair enough.

Esp those that have come from poop holes like Zimbabwae etc.

 

[Peat]

His wife is expecting during the tour apparently.

Source?

If he's said to Eddie "Mate, don't wanna tour anyway, the wife's giving birth", I'd say fair dos.

If he's said to Eddie "Mate, I'll tour with England, but not with the Saxons" then regardless of reason, there's no fair dos to it. I sympathise, but either he wants to play for England and that means doing what the set-up says, or he doesn't. No half-way house for me. And I suspect Jones might feel the same way.

At one point if looked like he was right up in Eddies thoughts. Then he copped a ban which he probably feels was a big harsh. Then Jones publicly says he has bits of his game to fix and leaves him out of the senior squad in favour of Yarde who hasn't torn up a single tree in about 6 years.
...

He's become a pantomime villain - plenty of others swallow dive over the line, but only he got vilified for it. Sure he's got evident flaws, but sometimes in all this we overlook just how good a player he is. Saracens haven't got much wrong recently and they seem to value him.

Yarde hasn't turn up any trees since he was 19? Uhm. I smell hyperbole.

And Ashton isn't a good player at international level and that's not merely a case of defence.

 

[welshglory]

Well i think that's a bit harsh on Ashton. If that's actually true that his wife is expecting during the summer then there is scope for leeway in regards to the Saxons.

We've seen many players miss full on national test matches to be with their wives. Surely he can miss a Saxons tour.