Ireland’s tour of South Africa

[Leonormous Boozer]

No I think your jumping to conclusions.
If you read correctly I said his target for next season should be to be a starter by November for Leinster and a back up for Ireland possibly by 6 Nations. Not sure how you get that as wishing an injury but hey whatever floats your boat.

Read what correctly, your mind? You never said either of those things until this post. Edit: apologies. Missed this going back. But I think it's insanely lofty targets not matched by Sexton or Crowley so not really worth responding to.

Regards potential and injury all I said was players need to play consistently, especially 10s, to build on potential.
If Prendergast doesn't get sufficient minutes in important games then his ceiling will lower.
Like take this season with Prendergast and you can spin it any way you want.

He has 18 appearances in total. But Narrow to this season.
16 Appearances. But out of that 16 there is 4 starts.
Of the 16 games obviously 12 sub appearances. Out of that 12 the game was done and dusted in 10 of those games.
16 times he has been in squad but of that 16 only 6 appearances have been more than 20 minutes.

Ok, I'll spin it this way. Prendergast has 478 minutes (so far) with four starts and all at 10, one season out of u20. Crowley had 506 minutes with 5 starts split between 10 and 12, TWO seasons out of u20.

Was Crowley managed badly? Doesn't look like it to me.

Another edit: Prendergast also played 160 URC minutes in his last u20 season. So he's a year ahead of Crowley with change in his progression.

So for all the good 10s you llok at the history they have a good trendline of playing consistently.

Except Johnny Sexton who barely played until 23 because he wasn't physically there…

Sam's on a great trajectory, any doubting is coming from a negative place.

 

[irisht]

Sexton aside, Jimmy Gopperth is the best ten to play for Leinster since Contepomi, and that's a fact backed by science, pseudo or otherwise.

doubt you'd get much push back on that.

 

[munstermuffin]

Read what correctly, your mind? You never said either of those things until this post. Edit: apologies. Missed this going back. But I think it's insanely lofty targets not matched by Sexton or Crowley so not really worth responding to.


Ok, I'll spin it this way. Prendergast has 478 minutes (so far) with four starts and all at 10, one season out of u20. Crowley had 506 minutes with 5 starts split between 10 and 12, TWO seasons out of u20.

Was Crowley managed badly? Doesn't look like it to me.

Another edit: Prendergast also played 160 URC minutes in his last u20 season. So he's a year ahead of Crowley with change in his progression.

Except Johnny Sexton who barely played until 23 because he wasn't physically there…

Sam's on a great trajectory, any doubting is coming from a negative place.

I'm not saying Sam has had bad year. More he is where he is now and to build on that.

And what targets. Crowley made his Irish debut at 22. You're saying it wildly unrealistic for Prendergast to make a debut at 22 too?
Ok well I suppose you are judging it differently.
You are saying it is unrealistic for Prendergast to be a starter for Leinster by November.
6 Months earlier than Jack Crowley really. Well again fair enough.
But again Sexton was a different era where AIL was tougher and he was playing games consistently at 10.

Not once did I say anything negative just all factual. My point was more his future is in how Leinster handle him. That is the facts.
I didn't even mention it as a Crowley vs Prendergast issue but you seem to wierdly enough be hooked on that.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

I'm not saying Sam has had bad year. More he is where he is now and to build on that.

And what targets. Crowley made his Irish debut at 22. You're saying it wildly unrealistic for Prendergast to make a debut at 22 too?

Crowley was born in Jan 2000 made his debut in Nov 2022. Prendergast Feb 2003. He has until 2025 to make his debut at the same time.

Ok well I suppose you are judging it differently.
You are saying it is unrealistic for Prendergast to be a starter for Leinster by November.
6 Months earlier than Jack Crowley really. Well again fair enough.

As above, a year and six months ahead of Crowley. Crowley only became Munsters no. 1 just over a year ago, he was capped first.

But again Sexton was a different era where AIL was tougher and he was playing games consistently at 10.

In 06/07? AIL was well into its decline by then.

Not once did I say anything negative just all factual. My point was more his future is in how Leinster handle him. That is the facts.
I didn't even mention it as a Crowley vs Prendergast issue but you seem to wierdly enough be hooked on that.

It's not a one vs the other thing. Just comparing what Crowley, who was managed very well with a great result, did vs your barometer for success for Prendergast. Way too much pressure for a young lad learning the game. Summer next year is plenty of time for him to make his debut and the September after to be the main man for Leinster would be grand. It would be great if he can exceed that of course.

 

[munstermuffin]

Crowley was born in Jan 2000 made his debut in Nov 2022. Prendergast Feb 2003. He has until 2025 to make his debut at the same time.

As above, a year and six months ahead of Crowley. Crowley only became Munsters no. 1 just over a year ago, he was capped first.

In 06/07? AIL was well into its decline by then.

It's not a one vs the other thing. Just comparing what Crowley, who was managed very well with a great result, did vs your barometer for success for Prendergast. Way too much pressure for a young lad learning the game. Summer next year is plenty of time for him to make his debut and the September after to be the main man for Leinster would be grand. It would be great if he can exceed that of course.

AIL only lost it's way after 2009 actually. When Munster won European Cup in 2008 we had lads like Keith Earls still playing away. It was only when academies really took off the seperation happened. Sexton was playing with Marys from around 2003. Definitely played with them up to 07/08.

Again there is an obsession with Jack Crowley. Jack Crowley was consistently playing week in week out.
Use Fin Smith so if you want a perfect like for like.
Again I never even mentioned Crowley. You said I wanted a guy injured which I didn't and now you are obsessed with a Jack Crowley comparison.

It is common nature for any player especially in a specialized position that they need to play there consistently. That is just science. You don't play for prolonged periods some abilities decline naturally. I used JJ Hanrahan as an example that he suffered from being a utility player and went from being a World Class potential 10 at 20s level to effectively a journeyman 10. He made great efforts to regain what he had but it not that easy and his ceiling went from being the empire state building to a bungalow.

If you think Prendergast is fine not to play much consistently for a year then fair enough. Maybe it works out maybe it doesn't.
Only time will tell.
All I said was historically 10s that don't play 10 consistently suffer. Not a Leinster thing, not an Irish thing just a fact based on stats.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

AIL only lost it's way after 2009 actually. When Munster won European Cup in 2008 we had lads like Keith Earls still playing away. It was only when academies really took off the seperation happened. Sexton was playing with Marys from around 2003. Definitely played with them up to 07/08.

Again there is an obsession with Jack Crowley. Jack Crowley was consistently playing week in week out.
Use Fin Smith so if you want a perfect like for like.
Again I never even mentioned Crowley. You said I wanted a guy injured which I didn't and now you are obsessed with a Jack Crowley comparison.

It is common nature for any player especially in a specialized position that they need to play there consistently. That is just science. You don't play for prolonged periods some abilities decline naturally. I used JJ Hanrahan as an example that he suffered from being a utility player and went from being a World Class potential 10 at 20s level to effectively a journeyman 10. He made great efforts to regain what he had but it not that easy and his ceiling went from being the empire state building to a bungalow.

If you think Prendergast is fine not to play much consistently for a year then fair enough. Maybe it works out maybe it doesn't.
Only time will tell.
All I said was historically 10s that don't play 10 consistently suffer. Not a Leinster thing, not an Irish thing just a fact based on stats.

Comparing a guy in a different country, in a different national set up is more like for like than comparing one young Irish 10 with another who is a few years ahead of him? What?

The amount Crowley played worked. Prendergast has played and is set to play more than he did at equivalent stages of his career and not sharing minutes in other positions either, the only thing stopping it is injury.

Just cop on and admit you got this wrong and that there's no need to worry about his progression. I've provided the precious stats to back it up.

Sexton also did not play AIL in 03, he was in 5th year.

 

[big ginger 8]

So probably a squad of 33ish for the tour? Only 2 tests imagine something like:

Props: Porter, Healy, Loughman, Furlong, Bealham, O'Toole/Jaeger

Hooker: Sheehan, Kelleher, Herring

Locks: Beirne, McCarthy, Ryan, ? Murray maybe? Just have Baird cover? A lot of lads injured

Backrow: Doris, VDF, Conan, POM, Baird, Hodnett

Scrumhalf: JGP, Casey, probably Murray

Outhalf: Crowley, RB, Frawley

Centre: Henshaw, Ringrose, Osborne

Backthree: JOB, Lowe, Hansen (if fit), Nash, Larmour

 

[munstermuffin]

Comparing a guy in a different country, in a different national set up is more like for like than comparing one young Irish 10 with another who is a few years ahead of him? What?

The amount Crowley played worked. Prendergast has played and is set to play more than he did at equivalent stages of his career and not sharing minutes in other positions either, the only thing stopping it is injury.

Just cop on and admit you got this wrong and that there's no need to worry about his progression. I've provided the precious stats to back it up.

Sexton also did not play AIL in 03, he was in 5th year.

Christ I am not comparing I said use Fin Smith as you are crying about Crowley comparison. (Which you used not me)
And even now are still obsessed with it.

Like what have I actually got wrong??

Ok Sexton may have played in 2004 I said around if that is ok. Or will that be compared to Jack Crowley.

Like what upsets you?? Is it that I said 10s need games??


Just a quick look up and might be awkward. Jonathan Sexton played his first game for St Marys Senior XV in November 2003. Don't know was it AIL so won't say it was.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Christ I am not comparing I said use Fin Smith as you are crying about Crowley comparison. (Which you used not me)
And even now are still obsessed with it.

Like what have I actually got wrong??

Ok Sexton may have played in 2004 I said around if that is ok. Or will that be compared to Jack Crowley.

Like what upsets you?? Is it that I said 10s need games??


Just a quick look up and might be awkward. Jonathan Sexton played his first game for St Marys Senior XV in November 2003. Don't know was it AIL so won't say it was.

Baseless speculation that Prendergast won't play enough rugby is what I've been arguing against this entire time, it's pointless, negative and when I see it elsewhere seems very malicious. Thats where the Crowley comparison came from and I'm not crying about it, I'm very much using it to show you Prendergast is on a similar trajectory if not a little bit ahead.

When I was backing Crowley a few years ago there was no "he has to play games or he won't reach his potential" and he was behind Carbery and Healy in the 10 shirt at the time.

 

[irisht]

Prendergast is ahead of Crowley at the same, how can this be argued?

 

[munstermuffin]

Baseless speculation that Prendergast won't play enough rugby is what I've been arguing against this entire time, it's pointless, negative and when I see it elsewhere seems very malicious. Thats where the Crowley comparison came from and I'm not crying about it, I'm very much using it to show you Prendergast is on a similar trajectory if not a little bit ahead.

When I was backing Crowley a few years ago there was no "he has to play games or he won't reach his potential" and he was behind Carbery and Healy in the 10 shirt at the time.

But I never said that I said it was key he does. Leinster have 4 10s. It impossible to please them all. I never said anything about Prendergast not playing.
If anything based on the reports tonight I think Leinster just made a big mistake with Harry Byrne and a new contract if the mumblings are true.
If Prendergast does improve you'd imagine he gets in the 23 fairly fast.
If he gets in the 23 you back him to make starting jersey his.

Jack Crowley was the same. People were saying he had to be a 10. Remember his first few games were 12. People were hesitant about that. But people said the same because it is just facts about 10s. Same for Frawley. He will never reach a tip URC level 10 even because he is a utility player. A good 1 and will do for 10 or 15 mins a game etc like final. And make serious impact.
On Crowley by the way some people backed Ben Healy too it was a divide in some senses whereas everyone is united on Prendergast.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

But I never said that I said it was key he does. Leinster have 4 10s. It impossible to please them all. I never said anything about Prendergast not playing.
If anything based on the reports tonight I think Leinster just made a big mistake with Harry Byrne and a new contract if the mumblings are true.
If Prendergast does improve you'd imagine he gets in the 23 fairly fast.
If he gets in the 23 you back him to make starting jersey his.

Jack Crowley was the same. People were saying he had to be a 10. Remember his first few games were 12. People were hesitant about that. But people said the same because it is just facts about 10s. Same for Frawley. He will never reach a tip URC level 10 even because he is a utility player. A good 1 and will do for 10 or 15 mins a game etc like final. And make serious impact.
On Crowley by the way some people backed Ben Healy too it was a divide in some senses whereas everyone is united on Prendergast.

Prendergast was ahead of Harry Byrne the last two games, two interpros one of which was a knockout game, it's safe to say he's number two now.

Frawley isn't a starting 10, only a 6/2 sub. Very much a utility player. SP might not play as much in Europe next year if Leinster continue with the 6/2 but he'll start far more games which will be more beneficial at this stage.

I remember Crowley coming through, it was managed very well and after the emerging Ireland tour he went from strength to strength.

 

[munstermuffin]

Prendergast was ahead of Harry Byrne the last two games, two interpros one of which was a knockout game, it's safe to say he's number two now.

Frawley isn't a starting 10, only a 6/2 sub. Very much a utility player. SP might not play as much in Europe next year if Leinster continue with the 6/2 but he'll start far more games which will be more beneficial at this stage.

I remember Crowley coming through, it was managed very well and after the emerging Ireland tour he went from strength to strength.

Yes and Prendergast I have no doubt will be same just 10s need to play regularly. The mumblings regards Byrne tonight are unrelated to any selection but he ain't in South Africa and from what I'm hearing tonight issues are irreconcilable and may be out of D4 before we know it permanently.

Frawley as you say is a luxury utility. Can cover 10 but isn't a 10

 

[Groundhog]

I'm kind of more interested in the Emerging squad. Interested to see how it's approached.

 

[munstermuffin]

I'm kind of more interested in the Emerging squad. Interested to see how it's approached.

Well it a sticky situation as presumably no front line Internationals around and URC games argubally more important. Slimmer squads too so will be interesting to see even what size squad.

 

[Saintjay]

Excuses in early?

South Africa vs Ireland: Bok injuries mount before two-Test summer series

South Africa head coach Rassie Erasmus confirms he will be without several injured players for their opening Test with Ireland in Pretoria on 6 July.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Prendergast should have the 22 jersey if we don't go 6/2. And I don't think Frawley warrants the 23 jersey.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

JGP out. Will miss the start of next season too.

 

[munstermuffin]

JGP out. Will miss the start of next season too.

That a massive loss

 

[big ginger 8]

Squad announced at 4:30. Haven't seen anything elsewhere about JGP but being minus him and Keenan would be a major blow.