England 2023/24

[Ragey Erasmus]

Really exciting talent….cue the selection of Ludlow and Ewels

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Heyes has stepped up well so far this start of season much better than last season fingers crossed he carries on

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

More clarify or maybe not.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Senior assistant head coach or senior assistant to the head coach?

According to the article we've got:

Steve Borthwick – head coach
Richard Wigglesworth – senior assistant coach (attack)
Joe El-Abd – assistant coach (defence)
Tom Harrison – assistant coach (scrum)
Kevin Sinfield – assistant coach (skills & kicking)
Andrew Strawbridge – assistant coach & coaching advisor

 

[Reiser99]

No disrespect to Wigglesworth, but it's pretty damning that he's considered the senior assistant coach. In terms of coaching he's still relatively new himself.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

"Wigglesworth will work closely with Borthwick to develop England's overall game plan and attacking strategy and will support the head coach in day-to-day leadership and managing the coaching group".

So what exactly is SB's role if not to set the overall game plan, day to day leadership and managing the coaches??

 

[BPM]

Wigglesworth does seem over promoted. However, we're judging from the outside. If he's genuinely the most influential of Borthwick's coaching group then perhaps it is justified?

Maybe, maybe not, but jeez this particular thread is so relentlessly negative.

 

[Reiser99]

Wigglesworth does seem over promoted. However, we're judging from the outside. If he's genuinely the most influential of Borthwick's coaching group then perhaps it is justified?

Maybe, maybe not, but jeez this particular thread is so relentlessly negative.

Yes it is and I'll admit I'm one of the most. But we had years of coaching instability under Jones and it showed. Borthwick has basically been in the job less than 2 years and his first since the WC. Already we have same issues. If Wigs was promoted as part of a settled, experienced team then maybe I'd agree. Instead, he's being promoted as part of a team that is either part time, new or lacking experience. Maybe we're all wrong, but the current situation doesn't scream positivity.

Ultimately, it's a results based business, so if England win then Borthwick will be vindicated. However, if they lose and look lost and confused like they have done in the past, then the coaching setup will obviously be a contributing factor.

 

[Which Tyler]

Ultimately, it's a results based business, so if England win then Borthwick will be vindicated. However, if they lose and look lost and confused like they have done in the past, then the coaching setup will obviously be a contributing factor.

Just FTR
Borthwick is currently W;13 / D:0 / L11; so a win ratio of 54.2%
This puts him above Andy Robinson, and only Andy Robinson in terms of England head coaches since Geoff Cooke took over in 1988.
Yes, his win ratio is (slightly) worse than Brian Ashton (54.5%) and Martin Johnson (55.3%), let alone Eddie Jones' 2nd half (57.7%).

For me personally, he's still got a little grace from reaching par in the RWC; but he'll need better than 50% win ratio this season.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Just FTR
Borthwick is currently W;13 / D:0 / L11; so a win ratio of 54.2%
This puts him above Andy Robinson, and only Andy Robinson in terms of England head coaches since Geoff Cooke took over in 1988.
Yes, his win ratio is (slightly) worse than Brian Ashton (54.5%) and Martin Johnson (55.3%), let alone Eddie Jones' 2nd half (57.7%).

For me personally, he's still got a little grace from reaching par in the RWC; but he'll need better than 50% win ratio this season.

I find these stats can be quite skewed by who we end up playing in the summer and autumn tours. If SB had toured Argentina or Australia (for example) these extra wins look good compared to going to NZ or SA.

Although i have seen an improvement and progression with this England team still fells like we are in second gear.

 

[Which Tyler]

Of course win ratios are skewed by the quality of the opposition - I was making the assumption that literally everybody would be aware of that nuance.
It's part of the reason you take a decent sample size, and don't really bother looking at the figures for anyone with less than about 20 tests in charge.

However, we play who we play - there's not really any way to control for that variable, unless one of us is in charge of arranging England's fixture list.

The fact remains, that in the last 36 years, only Andy Robinson has a worse record as England head coach. That's the fact, interpretation and nuance go to explaining the fact, not making it any the less factual.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

@Which Tyler completely agree.

Within those losses I personally felt like tactics and/ or selection was one of the main causes as well. Feels like a lot of games got away from us. Let's see if that win ratio improves or not this November, big tests await!

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Wigglesworth does seem over promoted. However, we're judging from the outside. If he's genuinely the most influential of Borthwick's coaching group then perhaps it is justified?

Maybe, maybe not, but jeez this particular thread is so relentlessly negative.

We're English, we enjoy it best when things are going badly….have you seen our media?

The issue has been that the whole operation hasn't seemed like a well oiled machine in forever (and probably seldom has). The latter Jones years are best forgotten for so many reasons. SB *seemed* the wrong man for the job and has done little to really dispel that despite a change of style which seemed to be a knee jerk driven by others, the churn of coaches continues, the central contracts thing rumbles on (details seemingly not agreed but 2 players have agreed them??) we can't find a 12 or a 3 for love nor money (there's hope, but that's currently all it is).

There are some good players around, but it's probably back over 20 years since an England team really felt consistently convincing notwithstanding the long initial winning run under Jones where we somehow got results despite much of that rugby stinking the place out.

All we really ask for is some stability, a clear plan and to be consistently competitive. The ball's too much of a funny shape to be totally results focused…..that said, no 6N ***le in 7 years, and seldom in contention, is pretty poor.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Sanderson said today that the clubs still haven't been told anything about the dual contract situation, which is absolutely crazy - how can George and Itoje be already on it but no one else knows anything?
Clubs are trying to get contract negotiations sorted before it becomes open season at Christmas but have no idea if the RFU are going to help out and what that looks like - and if you get players tied down and then the RFU come along after then what? Do they just say "oh that's unlucky we can only do central contracts as part of a new deal not an existing one, unlucky"?


He also said there'll be no EPS players in round 6, which is gonna be a big blow to some sides - Tigers going away to Sarries, Sale away at Bath, Quins away at Chiefs

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

He also said there'll be no EPS players in round 6, which is gonna be a big blow to some sides - Tigers going away to Sarries, Sale away at Bath, Quins away at Chiefs

Yeah Care said the same thing on the BBC podcast - this new structure was designed so that they would be available every game for goodness sake

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

I said that I'd take a firm view on SB after the AIs and I stand by that. I'm not buying any 'coaching team are bedding in' type excuses though - I mean it's partly true but it's also a problem of SB's own making.

Times reporting that Mitchell almost certainly out, but Ford almost certainly and Slade probably both likely to be physically fit even if undercooked in terms of game time. Both Currys expected to be named in the squad.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Not sure on Tom, he's playing OK but it's 100% a reputation pick - Ben playing ludicrously well though

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

I 100% don't want Slade nor Ford in the squad. Let they play for their club and get some form. SB had a habit before if I remember correctly of playing undercooked players.

 

[Which Tyler]

Yeah Care said the same thing on the BBC podcast - this new structure was designed so that they would be available every game for goodness sake

Then Care lied (ETA: or I mis-understood you) - because that was never, ever the case.
There was always still going to be clashes between premiership matches, and international warm-up matches.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Then Care lied (ETA: or I mis-inderstood you) - because that was never, ever the case.
There was always still going to be clashes between premiership matches, and international warm-up matches.

Care just said they weren't available. My memory was that this new system was supposed to mean that intl players were av all year round, but that may be me misremembering