England 2023/24

LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan) · Dec 6, 2023

is 2024 that important that we should play both Marler and Cole again?
I feel one or the other to give some experience

Scotty · Dec 6, 2023

Vieux Talonneur said:
The very distant future. The kid's 19 with involvement in just 2 Prem matches.

A talent for sure, but he's got several rite of passage stuffings to endure before we can properly talk about him in this thread. I suspect he'll get one of those from Marler if they meet again in a remotely competitive match.

EDIT: Opoku and Marler were only on the pitch for 10 minutes together so pretty hard to form anything other than a cursory view in that timeframe.

True, but i will is if he can handle himself in the scrum to dominate Marler, even for 10 min he deserves a bench shot for club. Given how athletic and powerful he looked in the loose the guy could be a real asset. If he is consistantly good enough at the scrum then for a prop he deserves his chance.

Then England only when he is consistant and has earned it(after earning a starting spot for Sale). Wasnt Curry very young when he broke into England? If your good enough your old enough.

Which Tyler · Dec 6, 2023

Scotty said:
If your good enough your old enough.

Unless you're young enough that your bones haven't finished fusing, and are physically incapable of taking the pressure of too many first class scums - so, under about 22 yoa.

How much 1st class rugby should young props/hookers play?

I put this post in another thread (on another board) a few days ago (actually, 3-4 years ago now, but I wasn't here then, and I've just found it again to link elsewhere in reference to Corbs' latest knee op); which got largely ignored as the thread turned into the match thread for the All...

www.therugbyforum.com

Scotty · Dec 6, 2023

Quel Carreleur said:
Unless you're young enough that your bones haven't finished fusing, and are physically incapable of taking the pressure of too many first class scums - so, under about 22 yoa.

Is that a thing? Its not something im aware of, though i cant see why i would be.

Which Tyler · Dec 6, 2023

Scotty said:
Is that a thing? Its not something im aware of, though i cant see why i would be.

Yup - see my edit - originally posted donkey's years ago, before I had an account on this site.

Lé Ddanno · Dec 7, 2023

Scotty said:
Is that a thing? Its not something im aware of, though i cant see why i would be.

It is definitely a thing, and it's something that rugby needs to pay proper attention to in the front 3, possibly the front 5

BPM · Dec 7, 2023

Geordie said:
Yes because i think he a fast direct powerful try scorer. He is a very god finisher. His big issue is the injuries...but if he can stop those then hes a class winger.

You could say the same for the three I mentioned over a much longer period of time than Sleightholme. If he could put together a run of games and consistently maintain his form, my opinion might be different, but I genuinely don't recall him playing more than a handful of consecutive games in his entire Saints career mostly through injury but partly selection (happy to be corrected on that though).

I do like him but I just don't get why he's a MUST in capital letters?

BPM · Dec 7, 2023

Everyday EggChaser said:
Didn't Asher Opoku play mainly at loosehead for the u20s? He put the squeeze on Marler vs Quins at tighthead so I have no idea which is his preferred.

I thought he same. IIRC, Fasogbon was playing tighthead.

Impressive that he seems to have switched sides and is effective to the point of impressing Marler.

As an aside, maybe this is something our age grade coaches are looking at for our up and coming props. Baxter was a tighthead but has now switched to being a loosehead and Brantingham has played 1 and 3 for Falcons. It could be total coincidence, but with Opoku Fordjour doing something similar, it feels like there's a bit of a pattern.

Don't Skip Leg Day · Dec 7, 2023

Until Ollie Slightholme starts over Ramm and Freeman consistently he shouldn't really be in the England conversation.

Freeman is much more rounded as is Murley.

Gavin · Dec 7, 2023

Wallabies star Mark Nawaqanitawase defects to NRL in Roosters deal

Rugby Australia has suffered another blow after Wallabies winger agrees to join NRL club the Roosters for the 2025 season

www.google.com

Rugby Australia has suffered another blow after Wallabies winger Mark Nawaqanitawase agreed to join NRL club the Roosters for the 2025 season on a two-year deal.

Clearly wasn't paying attention.

Can one of the admins move this to the Transfers thread?

LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan) · Dec 7, 2023

Gavin said:
Wallabies star Mark Nawaqanitawase defects to NRL in Roosters deal

Rugby Australia has suffered another blow after Wallabies winger agrees to join NRL club the Roosters for the 2025 season

www.google.com

Big loss for English rugby

Vieux Talonneur · Dec 7, 2023

LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan) said:
is 2024 that important that we should play both Marler and Cole again?
I feel one or the other to give some experience

If they're our best scrummagers play them until they decide to pack in or others force their way in. Let others learn their craft from the bench - which is where I thought the, sometime, more dynamic Genge and Sinckler were best suited anyway.

You absolutely don't want sinecures for underperforming players but nor should players get picked on the basis of potential or 'turn' - they need to make a persuasive case to take the incumbent's shirt.

Vieux Talonneur · Dec 7, 2023

BPM said:
I thought he same. IIRC, Fasogbon was playing tighthead.

Impressive that he seems to have switched sides and is effective to the point of impressing Marler.

As an aside, maybe this is something our age grade coaches are looking at for our up and coming props. Baxter was a tighthead but has now switched to being a loosehead and Brantingham has played 1 and 3 for Falcons. It could be total coincidence, but with Opoku Fordjour doing something similar, it feels like there's a bit of a pattern.

I hope it is. There's no reason why most props can't at least be adequate on both sides - except for not training / playing both. What you get pigeon holed as at 14 isn't necessarily what you're best at at 25.

BPM · Dec 7, 2023

Don't Skip Leg Day said:
Until Ollie Slightholme starts over Ramm and Freeman consistently he shouldn't really be in the England conversation.

Freeman is much more rounded as is Murley.

This

Crash Hamster · Dec 7, 2023

Vieux Talonneur said:
I hope it is. There's no reason why most props can't at least be adequate on both sides - except for not training / playing both. What you get pigeon holed as at 14 isn't necessarily what you're best at at 25.

I've always thought this. While you'd have to be phenomenally talented to play in any position at international level, if you have the raw ingredients to play prop, there should be no reason that you can't play either side. Obviously, you'd then have to specialise and train hard.

Maybe a loosehead might benefit from being left-handed..?

Bearing in mind that an older prop is often a better prop, even a switch at 20-22 would mean a wealth of experience in your mid to late 20s.

There must be a roughly equal number of English-qualified loose heads and tight heads in the game at large, so is what we're seeing a failure of coaching and development? Talent identification?

Geordie · Dec 7, 2023

Don't Skip Leg Day said:
Until Ollie Slightholme starts over Ramm and Freeman consistently he shouldn't really be in the England conversation.

Freeman is much more rounded as is Murley.

Hes only just back from injury in January...hes started pretty well.

Don't Skip Leg Day · Dec 7, 2023

Geordie said:
Hes only just back from injury in January...hes started pretty well.

He has started well yes but freeman and Ramm (who is actually English qualified) have been more consistent and better for the last season or so.

I love Ollie S as well by the way, but for me he's got a lot to prove until he should be in consideration and one of the things to prove is the ability to stay fit.

Is also ask what he does better than Murley or Freeman?

I'd also maybe guess we might just see Watson and Daly on the wings with the risk adverse SB but we shall see.

TRF_Olyy · Dec 7, 2023

Don't Skip Leg Day said:
I'd also maybe guess we might just see Watson and Daly on the wings with the risk adverse SB but we shall see.

I'm predicting:

Mitchell, Smith
Arundell, Tuilagi, Daly, Watson
Steward

Randall, Ford, Lawrence

Vieux Talonneur · Dec 7, 2023

Don't Skip Leg Day said:
He has started well yes but freeman and Ramm (who is actually English qualified) have been more consistent and better for the last season or so.

I love Ollie S as well by the way, but for me he's got a lot to prove until he

I'd also maybe guess we might just see Watson and Daly on the wings with the risk adverse SB but we shall see.

If fit, Watson's simply our best winger. That's a no brainer.

Daly's more utility player who's now 31. He did some decent things in the RWC but it's been a while since he really left his mark on games. There must be an opening there for a specialist with a point of difference.

Don't Skip Leg Day · Dec 7, 2023

When was the last time Watson even started a game of rugby? He was our best English winger but i don't think anyone can say he still is as there is little evidence of that due to his injuries.

Is he injured now or just behind OHC and Bassett/ Kata/ Steward/ brown?

On that how is OHC playing? Does he deserve another look? I also wonder if Arendull is struggling to live up to expectations, but let's see.

N.B freeman and Murley chase kicks

England 2023/24

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