[2021 Six Nations] England vs Scotland (06/02/21)

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

It's hard to compare Ford and Farrell at 10 when a lot of their performance is dictated by their 9 performance and having a proper 12.

Youngs plays hot or miss and having Manu at 12 is difficult to compare to some of the other 12s we've had.

 

[ncurd]

It's hard to compare Ford and Farrell at 10 when a lot of their performance is dictated by their 9 performance and having a proper 12.

Youngs plays hot or miss and having Manu at 12 is difficult to compare to some of the other 12s we've had.

Which is why it would be nice to see Ford have a chance with the myriad of 12's Farrell had......

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Which is why it would be nice to see Ford have a chance with the myriad of 12's Farrell had......

Which of those myriad of 12s do you suggest we put Ford next to? The injured Tuilagi, the abroad Te'o or the proven-not-to-be-a-12 Slade?

 

[ncurd]

Which of those myriad of 12s do you suggest we put Ford next to? The injured Tuilagi, the abroad Te'o or the proven-not-to-be-a-12 Slade?

I'll take any but better yet put Ford in for this game, he wasn't so **** he would of been dropped by any other team last Autumn

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

I'll take any but better yet put Ford in for this game, he wasn't so **** he would of been dropped by any other team last Autumn

Even accepting Ford is a better option, I think Jones is probably willing to take the hit for Farrell's perceived leadership qualities. A bit like Hartley, who was always a solid player at best, but started every game until he retired, basically.

 

[Leonormous Boozer]

Ford v Farrell? The first true sign a new test window has arrived.

Any of you worried that neither will be adequate come 2023 to mount a credible world cup winning challenge? I really can't see Ford being any use after a couple more years losing fast twitch muscle, he's barely a good enough athlete as is for international rugby with his pace getting him to the level. Signs aren't great for Farrell either who has always been on the slow side but powerful enough to make it work.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Any of you worried that neither will be adequate come 2023 to mount a credible world cup winning challenge?

Neither are adequate for it now, so not much point worrying about their decline

 

[ncurd]

Ford v Farrell? The first true sign a new test window has arrived.

Any of you worried that neither will be adequate come 2023 to mount a credible world cup winning challenge? I really can't see Ford being any use after a couple more years losing fast twitch muscle, he's barely a good enough athlete as is for international rugby with his pace getting him to the level. Signs aren't great for Farrell either who has always been on the slow side but powerful enough to make it work.

Spoke to my Dad about this earlier and whilst I have higher hopes that Ford will come good we came to the same conclusion that they're both possibly a spent force. I've never been fully convinced by Farrell but he was so bad in the Autumn (and last year's 6 nations) I do think England should be done with him. Ford has also never been quite as good as he's shown he can be in a while now. I think he should have a shot without being completely thrown under the bus by either side of him. But I'm also not against getting a youngster in and moving on, but this is the time to do it not carry on pretending for another year Farrell the man because he isn't and never was.

 

[Duck a l'Orange]

Owen Farrell is only 29, Ford only 27. 31/32 and 30 come 2023. Not like fly-half is the most physical position. Ford is also a very cerebral player, so waning slightly physically isn't going to kill his game. I'd not be that surprised if Ford plays at the 2027 RWC.

I'd certainly not call either of them a spent force, although I'd like to see Marcus Smith and/or Joe Simmonds brought in gradually.

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

Spoke to my Dad about this earlier and whilst I have higher hopes that Ford will come good we came to the same conclusion that they're both possibly a spent force. I've never been fully convinced by Farrell but he was so bad in the Autumn (and last year's 6 nations) I do think England should be done with him. Ford has also never been quite as good as he's shown he can be in a while now. I think he should have a shot without being completely thrown under the bus by either side of him. But I'm also not against getting a youngster in and moving on, but this is the time to do it not carry on pretending for another year Farrell the man because he isn't and never was.

I think it's an interesting point of whether having Farrell at 12 is making Ford more constrained rather than less? The few times we had Ford at 10 without Farrell he seemed to loosen up and play more like himself. I genuinely think Farrell is at the centre of a lot of the conservatism in our play, either when at 10 or 12, and really would like to have seen England play more without him but that's not going to happen. Farrell has at least played with players who offer some credible running threat from 12, with Farrell at 10, Ford has never had the option of a 12 running a dangerous line onto the ball apart from some very rare occasions.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

I think it's an interesting point of whether having Farrell at 12 is making Ford more constrained rather than less? The few times we had Ford at 10 without Farrell he seemed to loosen up and play more like himself. I genuinely think Farrell is at the centre of a lot of the conservatism in our play, either when at 10 or 12, and really would like to have seen England play more without him but that's not going to happen. Farrell has at least played with players who offer some credible running threat from 12, with Farrell at 10, Ford has never had the option of a 12 running a dangerous line onto the ball apart from some very rare occasions.

Yeah, I agree and have said for a while that for the most part 10s are always going to struggle if they don't have a powerful 12 outside them to shovel the ball to if their structure/moves get caught out. I've definitely been seeing an increase in playmaking 13s recently rather than 12s, with the 12 reverting to the more typical crashball role (12. Whitten/Devoto 13. Slade at Chiefs, 12. Atkinson 13. Twelvetrees at Gloucester, 12. Tuilagi/Hill/RJVR 13. James/RDP at Sale, 12. Barritt 13. Bosch/Lozowski at Saracens, Hutchinson and Francis getting plenty of game time at 13 at Saints, and even an out-and-out 10 like Ross Byrne getting game time at 13 outside of Henshaw at Leinster).

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Owen Farrell is only 29, Ford only 27. 31/32 and 30 come 2023. Not like fly-half is the most physical position. Ford is also a very cerebral player, so waning slightly physically isn't going to kill his game. I'd not be that surprised if Ford plays at the 2027 RWC.

I'd certainly not call either of them a spent force, although I'd like to see Marcus Smith and/or Joe Simmonds brought in gradually.

They both started playing internationally at 21, fractionally before for Ford. Still being at the top of your game after a decade is a big ask, and it's also natural to get more conservative as you get older.

They are both totally known quantities - to Jones and opponents. They may be our options again in 23, but it would be foolish not have a decent look at others in the build up.

 

[Bluejon]

Anyone think Hughes at 8? I I aways thought he was an ideal replacement for binny? Been playing well all season while BV has played, what once this year?

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Anyone think Hughes at 8?

Nope

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Anyone think Hughes at 8?

Nope

 

[higgik]

Yeah, I agree and have said for a while that for the most part 10s are always going to struggle if they don't have a powerful 12 outside them to shovel the ball to if their structure/moves get caught out. I've definitely been seeing an increase in playmaking 13s recently rather than 12s, with the 12 reverting to the more typical crashball role (12. Whitten/Devoto 13. Slade at Chiefs, 12. Atkinson 13. Twelvetrees at Gloucester, 12. Tuilagi/Hill/RJVR 13. James/RDP at Sale, 12. Barritt 13. Bosch/Lozowski at Saracens, Hutchinson and Francis getting plenty of game time at 13 at Saints, and even an out-and-out 10 like Ross Byrne getting game time at 13 outside of Henshaw at Leinster).

Said this as well.

Creating space is obviously vital. By having crash ball narrow it keeps the defence in so the 2nd distributor at 13 can put width to get round outside, or the wide threat creates weak shoulders narrow.

With the 2 playmakers narrow it is more difficult to spread the defence.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Neither Ford nor Farrell are truly amazing so we should really be looking at our options (via the bench) and Italy game.

The problem jones has created is that we don't have a settled 9 or 12 (Young's won't make the next WC) so we will most likely have a brand new and inexperienced 9, 10 and 12 for the next WC. Oh and probably 8 as well.

 

[Scotty]

Anyone think Hughes at 8? I I aways thought he was an ideal replacement for binny? Been playing well all season while BV has played, what once this year?

Nope


To add abit more info to that Hughes never stepped up fully to international level and he plays well at Bristol because the gameplan suits him better where as England would have him run at brick walls...even when he does play well for Bristol he makes mistakes and bad decisions.

 

[TheSaffycen]

Hughes for England is a lot like Goode, very good for club but it doesn't transfer for one reason or another.

 

[MikeTheNative]

Hughes had enough chances (he has 20 caps), it just never worked out.