[2021 Six Nations] England Squad

[Vieux Talonneur]

I don't think it works that way - if you hire someone to be head coach, you have to accept that they know what they're doing.
Either you have trust in them to do their job, or you don't. If you feel that you have to put preconditions of what and how they do, then don't give them the job in the first place.

I absolutely agree that Farrell needs to be stripped of the captain's armband; and needs to be challenged for his shirt itself; but that can't be a pre-condition of Eddie's employment

Fair point, bad wording on my part.

I think I meant to say that Jones is far more likely to hang onto his job if he is promising change and details what that's likely to be. Things could get very awkward for his employer if he swears blind that he's on the right track.

Credit in the bank is one thing. But so's past performance being no guide to the future.

 

[Geordie]

Is anyone actually happy for Jones to stay and feel he's very much looking to and capable of freshening things up..?

 

[Jakedood]

Is anyone actually happy for Jones to stay and feel he's very much looking to and capable of freshening things up..?

I'd say he can yeah. Sounds like he's planning on it, but again time will tell. Think he deserves the autumn internationals, and if its still like this then he'll go

 

[TRF_Olyy]

I remember the ref mic picking up the ref asking Itoje if he knew that he had been made captain whilst Farrell was still on the pitch - somewhere between 50-60 minutes I think.


Completely forgot about that until now

Time to dust this classic off then

 

[Geordie]

I'd say he can yeah. Sounds like he's planning on it, but again time will tell. Think he deserves the autumn internationals, and if its still like this then he'll go

Yeah thats my thoughts.

 

[Which Tyler]

Fair point, bad wording on my part.

I think I meant to say that Jones is far more likely to hang onto his job if he is promising change and details what that's likely to be. Things could get very awkward for his employer if he swears blind that he's on the right track.

Credit in the bank is one thing. But so's past performance being no guide to the future.

That's fair - but... he's already in the process of changing, maybe not in the way we want to see, or as successfully as we want it to be, but he's changing.
I'd expect his part in a review would be to:
Explain what his plan was for this 6N campaign, what he was looking to do, and identify moments where it worked, and moments when it didn't
Explain why he made the decisions he did before having the benefit of hindsight - selection, match tactics, and development of both
Explain what went wrong, if his decision were wrong, and if they were wrong in a forseeable way
Explain what he's do differently if he started again with the benefit of hindsight
Explain what he intends to do over the Summer and Autumm - selection, tactics and development of both - and if/how that plan has changed given that the 6N plan didn't survive first contact with the enemy (no plan ever does)

Is anyone actually happy for Jones to stay and feel he's very much looking to and capable of freshening things up..?

Yes - partly because there aren't any better options, and partly because I do see him trying to freshen things up already. Things didn't go as well as expected, for reasons both within and without his control.
He needs to identify where he could have done better; he needs to identify where he should have done better; he needs to identify where he took a gamble that did / didn't pay off; and he needs to identify what he's learned from that,and how it's going to change his approach going forwards.

IMO We're not all that far off - evolution rather than revolution

 

[BrokenWing]

He evolves... but he doesn't revolve....

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

The question he to be asked that if he knew he would bring change to the squad, why he didn't do that before or during this dismal campaign.

What was the point for example of playing Young's at all. He won't make the WC, we need to give Robson or another more experience and yet we still have Young's loss of game time he didn't need.

If jones really did think he needed change in the squad (which I think is a lie) then he wasted time and caps over this 6 nations.

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

Is anyone actually happy for Jones to stay and feel he's very much looking to and capable of freshening things up..?

Apparently Gatland is favourite for the England job once Jones goes.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Hopefully the RFU disbands into the 7 kingdoms so I don't have to deal

Up the Mercia!

 

[Jakedood]

The question he to be asked that if he knew he would bring change to the squad, why he didn't do that before or during this dismal campaign.

What was the point for example of playing Young's at all. He won't make the WC, we need to give Robson or another more experience and yet we still have Young's loss of game time he didn't need.

If jones really did think he needed change in the squad (which I think is a lie) then he wasted time and caps over this 6 nations.

Youngs is perfectly capable age wise of making 2023 world cup, he may not if up and comers overtake him ability wise, but SH isnt a position you need to be young for. He'll be 33 when WC rolls around, and Robson isnt exactly a spring chicken, or to me looked particularly adept either. I'd suggest its more likely Randall is the player Jones will look at, as to me Robsons passing has looked a little too ponderous , though he should be effective in broken field, hence maybe a 10/15 minute cameo off the banch

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Youngs is perfectly capable age wise of making 2023 world cup, he may not if up and comers overtake him ability wise, but SH isnt a position you need to be young for. He'll be 33 when WC rolls around, and Robson isnt exactly a spring chicken, or to me looked particularly adept either. I'd suggest its more likely Randall is the player Jones will look at, as to me Robsons passing has looked a little too ponderous , though he should be effective in broken field, hence maybe a 10/15 minute cameo off the banch

Don't let his 1 good game fool you. He's slow to and at the breakdown and not made any sniping runs (France excluded). I look at him now and think he looks off pace, it's shocking if he is our top 9 in 2 years. We'll be waiting at the breakdown for 5 minutes each time , as he decides what to do, before the ball eventually gets turned over.

 

[Jakedood]

Don't let his 1 good game fool you. He's slow to and at the breakdown and not made any sniping runs (France excluded). I look at him now and think he looks off pace, it's shocking if he is our top 9 in 2 years. We'll be waiting at the breakdown for 5 minutes each time , as he decides what to do, before the ball eventually gets turned over.

And that may be the case, but to say he definitely isnt going would be a bit strong. Actually I think he's looked really good when England are flying and getting quick ball, its the slower game he struggles with and looks ponderous
I agree he should be sniping more, even just to hold the defense a little bit, but SH is a tough position to determine as a lot of it depends on the ball you receive from your pack
Same for OH. Its why Ross Byrne looked great for Leinster and crap for Ireland

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Don't let his 1 good game fool you. He's slow to and at the breakdown and not made any sniping runs (France excluded). I look at him now and think he looks off pace, it's shocking if he is our top 9 in 2 years. We'll be waiting at the breakdown for 5 minutes each time , as he decides what to do, before the ball eventually gets turned over.

I'm far from being a Youngs fan but what about his tries against Wales and Ireland? If you want to criticise his passing, game management etc. then fair enough but his sniping game was pretty top tier this tournament.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Agree about the Autumn being Jones cut off.

Can Jones turn it around?

Not sure. I think his best chance is with quite a bit of new blood in the team. Not change for change's sake but more because a lot of the players have been listening to him for a very long time now which reduces effectiveness - the same old from the same voice invariably does. I'm not suggesting going mad, experience counts (provided justified by performance) but a fresher group is likely to be more receptive and more adaptable to some of his ideas. He is not going to change Binny, Farrell's or Youngs' engrained habits which opponents are all too familiar with.

The large turnover of assistants is bothering. There's the continuity aspect, but also maybe signals all hasn't been well in the camp. It might be that Jones is simply too intense, we've all heard about the 2 a.m e-mails. Working with people like that is pretty draining. In any job you need to know when to be full throttle and when to back off. Just working harder and demanding more is seldom the answer to solving problems.

On captaincy I'd forget about Itoje. He's a more cerebral version of Farrell - emotional and likely to try too hard to take on the world by himself. No club captaincy experience either - surely that's one mistake we must learn from. Most would say he's one of our marquee / potentially match turning players and captaincy seldom sits comfortably on the shoulders of those. Also poor discipline - as captain that would either be setting a bad example or the responsibility risks neutering him. Launchbury is 100% the obvious call here - you'd never argue with him being in the team, he'll invariably turn in a good 7/10 performance - seldom 10/10 but almost never 5/10 - and he has the Wasps captaincy experience banked. I suspect he'd have the respect of most of the group too. And he's not a Saracen - I've no idea if there is any bad blood from players from other clubs, but there has to be that possibility..........Itoje for example had question marks over image right valuations for salary cap purposes and IIRC came out with something fairly disingenuous like the players were pretty much in dark and shouldn't be blamed. Who knows what they really think of him down Exeter way?

Everything I'm reading suggests that the review basically boils down whether Jones can land the RWC. Our improvement is in our hands, but there's also what the competition are doing. Fra are going flat out to win on their home turf and despite the odd bump in the road are coming along nicely and developing strength. There's little more dangerous beast than a wounded ABs team and they'll be hell bent on regaining their status. The Boks will never be far away and who knows what Aus or Wal will be looking like then.

 

[Geordie]

Apparently Gatland is favourite for the England job once Jones goes.

I really hope he is nowhere near. I would prefer to explore other options if they move on from Jones, which i dont think they should yet.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

 

[Geordie]

Agree about the Autumn being Jones cut off.

Can Jones turn it around?

Not sure. I think his best chance is with quite a bit of new blood in the team. Not change for change's sake but more because a lot of the players have been listening to him for a very long time now which reduces effectiveness - the same old from the same voice invariably does. I'm not suggesting going mad, experience counts (provided justified by performance) but a fresher group is likely to be more receptive and more adaptable to some of his ideas. He is not going to change Binny, Farrell's or Youngs' engrained habits which opponents are all too familiar with.

The large turnover of assistants is bothering. There's the continuity aspect, but also maybe signals all hasn't been well in the camp. It might be that Jones is simply too intense, we've all heard about the 2 a.m e-mails. Working with people like that is pretty draining. In any job you need to know when to be full throttle and when to back off. Just working harder and demanding more is seldom the answer to solving problems.

On captaincy I'd forget about Itoje. He's a more cerebral version of Farrell - emotional and likely to try too hard to take on the world by himself. No club captaincy experience either - surely that's one mistake we must learn from. Most would say he's one of our marquee / potentially match turning players and captaincy seldom sits comfortably on the shoulders of those. Also poor discipline - as captain that would either be setting a bad example or the responsibility risks neutering him. Launchbury is 100% the obvious call here - you'd never argue with him being in the team, he'll invariably turn in a good 7/10 performance - seldom 10/10 but almost never 5/10 - and he has the Wasps captaincy experience banked. I suspect he'd have the respect of most of the group too. And he's not a Saracen - I've no idea if there is any bad blood from players from other clubs, but there has to be that possibility..........Itoje for example had question marks over image right valuations for salary cap purposes and IIRC came out with something fairly disingenuous like the players were pretty much in dark and shouldn't be blamed. Who knows what they really think of him down Exeter way?

Everything I'm reading suggests that the review basically boils down whether Jones can land the RWC. Our improvement is in our hands, but there's also what the competition are doing. Fra are going flat out to win on their home turf and despite the odd bump in the road are coming along nicely and developing strength. There's little more dangerous beast than a wounded ABs team and they'll be hell bent on regaining their status. The Boks will never be far away and who knows what Aus or Wal will be looking like then.

Big fan of Launchbury but will he be first choice if say Kruis comes back in to the set up...or if George Martin takes to international rugby as quickly as Tom Curry did for example.

 

[Jakedood]

Thats a cracking stat. Also highlights how good Henderson has been as a tighthead lock, disrupting rucks and mauls, and hard carries. The rucking part is usually hard to quantify, so I love this. But to affect 2/5 breakdowns like that is insane

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Big fan of Launchbury but will he be first choice if say Kruis comes back in to the set up...or if George Martin takes to international rugby as quickly as Tom Curry did for example.

Same conundrum we had with Hartley. The best team isn't necessarily the best 15 players. Leadership is a big part of any team and has been a huge problem since Hartley retired.

I've always regarded Kruis as our premier lock and if he's available / in decent form he plays. Launch is an established international class player who's still at the peak of his powers and if he's captain then that's the 2nd row sorted. That might not be a popular view (scrap that, it definitely won't) but I think it's what would serve the team best up to the RWC.