[2018 Six Nations] England Squad

[RugbyMarvel]

You'd hope, but it isn't.

Launch far too quiet and not domineering enough. Fantastic foot soldier though. Contrast his body language with Johnson - Even early in, Launch looks knackered with slumped shoulders and breathing hard; even when he was in bits Johnno was chest out, glowering, inviting the nearest 20 people to pick a fight and getting ready to go again. Sounds trivial, but when the going gets tough, having those kind of overtly positive, self confident characters makes the world of difference. Blokes you can look in the eye and know they'll be racing to be first over the top.

Itoje enough on plate rediscovering form and cementing place. Never been convinced by the FEC tag. That hype train needs to pull into a siding for a while.

Robshaw proved in spades when captain that he isn't a leader. Similar body language to Launch.

Care. Experienced yes, leadership, no although he can occasionally grab games by the scruff in the last 20 off the bench. Not a senior lieutenant though.

Ford. Head drops too easily. Great player if others set platform for him, too often anonymous if they don't. Partly the 10's lot, but you rarely see him having the all consuming influence that St Jonny used to.

Faz. Definite leader with winners mentality and widespread respect. Surely Hartley's successor.

Brown. Has the attitude for sure. That's why Eddie keeps resisting calls to dump him for more showreel players.

Especially up front there's not a lot of support for Hartley. Experience yes, but mainly followers. In that respect I feel a little sorry for him. Think who the likes of Johnson and McCaw were surrounded by when they lifted RWCs. If they were having a rare off day or not around, players with the global standing of Dayglo or Read would naturally step into the breach without missing a beat, they in turn being backed up by Vickery, Back, Kaino etc. It was far more than just being great players. Leadership's intangible, but it's very obvious to see when someone clearly does / doesn't have it. It's the effect they have on those around them, the ability to galvanise, as well as think smartly and act positively under pressure. Don't have to be the very best players - St Jonny was rightly kept away from the armband - but do have to have serious mental toughness and generate respect from friend and foe.

This has been identified as an issue by the RFU, with Dean Ryan leading an initiative with certain younger players. Basically trying to address an inherent lack of responsibility flaw that arises from the academy system. Times article about it a few months ago.

I read about the Dean Ryan initiative and I heard that Cameron Redpaths inclusion into the England open training day at Twickers was part of that.

 

[Mumbles119]

You'd hope, but it isn't.

Launch far too quiet and not domineering enough. Fantastic foot soldier though. Contrast his body language with Johnson - Even early in, Launch looks knackered with slumped shoulders and breathing hard; even when he was in bits Johnno was chest out, glowering, inviting the nearest 20 people to pick a fight and getting ready to go again. Sounds trivial, but when the going gets tough, having those kind of overtly positive, self confident characters makes the world of difference. Blokes you can look in the eye and know they'll be racing to be first over the top.

Itoje enough on plate rediscovering form and cementing place. Never been convinced by the FEC tag. That hype train needs to pull into a siding for a while.

Robshaw proved in spades when captain that he isn't a leader. Similar body language to Launch.

Care. Experienced yes, leadership, no although he can occasionally grab games by the scruff in the last 20 off the bench. Not a senior lieutenant though.

Ford. Head drops too easily. Great player if others set platform for him, too often anonymous if they don't. Partly the 10's lot, but you rarely see him having the all consuming influence that St Jonny used to.

Faz. Definite leader with winners mentality and widespread respect. Surely Hartley's successor.

Brown. Has the attitude for sure. That's why Eddie keeps resisting calls to dump him for more showreel players.

Especially up front there's not a lot of support for Hartley. Experience yes, but mainly followers. In that respect I feel a little sorry for him. Think who the likes of Johnson and McCaw were surrounded by when they lifted RWCs. If they were having a rare off day or not around, players with the global standing of Dayglo or Read would naturally step into the breach without missing a beat, they in turn being backed up by Vickery, Back, Kaino etc. It was far more than just being great players. Leadership's intangible, but it's very obvious to see when someone clearly does / doesn't have it. It's the effect they have on those around them, the ability to galvanise, as well as think smartly and act positively under pressure. Don't have to be the very best players - St Jonny was rightly kept away from the armband - but do have to have serious mental toughness and generate respect from friend and foe.

This has been identified as an issue by the RFU, with Dean Ryan leading an initiative with certain younger players. Basically trying to address an inherent lack of responsibility flaw that arises from the academy system. Times article about it a few months ago.

Very much this.

From a personal perspective observing the team and individual behaviour we can publically see: the leadership problem seems to be a problem of followership and no active leadership behaviour appearing on pitch.

To me, Hartley clearly seems to fully be in a follower of Eddie mode. Which is great that he is inspired and understands what Eddie wants. He seems to be Eddies lieutenant, loyal and focused on delivering. But the on pitch leader role needs to be autonomous from Eddies reins.

This issue just cascades as other potential leaders and senior players will follow and just up their effort to emulate their leaders direction.

This followership issue also creates another perceived issue by having too many designated leaders/senior players/vice captains. This means no clear immediate decision making can be made in the tiny amounts of time available to do so when a stoppage occurs. You could imagine the vice captains and captain all looking around and seeing effort still being put in by others and then thinking: "right, no one else sees this needs changing, so I will follow and carry on..."

If my musings have any truth, then this points towards the need for one clear leader with the ability to confidently and immediately change decisions on pitch. Maybe Farrell seems the strongest candidate, but would he have the capability to spot tactical issues within the forwards game? Which would bring us back to a forward being leader again, which to me is not Hartley on pitch, but I am at loss who fills this remit right now?

 

[Mumbles119]

You'd hope, but it isn't.

Launch far too quiet and not domineering enough. Fantastic foot soldier though. Contrast his body language with Johnson - Even early in, Launch looks knackered with slumped shoulders and breathing hard; even when he was in bits Johnno was chest out, glowering, inviting the nearest 20 people to pick a fight and getting ready to go again. Sounds trivial, but when the going gets tough, having those kind of overtly positive, self confident characters makes the world of difference. Blokes you can look in the eye and know they'll be racing to be first over the top.

Itoje enough on plate rediscovering form and cementing place. Never been convinced by the FEC tag. That hype train needs to pull into a siding for a while.

Robshaw proved in spades when captain that he isn't a leader. Similar body language to Launch.

Care. Experienced yes, leadership, no although he can occasionally grab games by the scruff in the last 20 off the bench. Not a senior lieutenant though.

Ford. Head drops too easily. Great player if others set platform for him, too often anonymous if they don't. Partly the 10's lot, but you rarely see him having the all consuming influence that St Jonny used to.

Faz. Definite leader with winners mentality and widespread respect. Surely Hartley's successor.

Brown. Has the attitude for sure. That's why Eddie keeps resisting calls to dump him for more showreel players.

Especially up front there's not a lot of support for Hartley. Experience yes, but mainly followers. In that respect I feel a little sorry for him. Think who the likes of Johnson and McCaw were surrounded by when they lifted RWCs. If they were having a rare off day or not around, players with the global standing of Dayglo or Read would naturally step into the breach without missing a beat, they in turn being backed up by Vickery, Back, Kaino etc. It was far more than just being great players. Leadership's intangible, but it's very obvious to see when someone clearly does / doesn't have it. It's the effect they have on those around them, the ability to galvanise, as well as think smartly and act positively under pressure. Don't have to be the very best players - St Jonny was rightly kept away from the armband - but do have to have serious mental toughness and generate respect from friend and foe.

This has been identified as an issue by the RFU, with Dean Ryan leading an initiative with certain younger players. Basically trying to address an inherent lack of responsibility flaw that arises from the academy system. Times article about it a few months ago.

Very much this.

From a personal perspective observing the team and individual behaviour we can publically see: the leadership problem seems to be a problem of followership and no active leadership behaviour appearing on pitch.

To me, Hartley clearly seems to fully be in a follower of Eddie mode. Which is great that he is inspired and understands what Eddie wants. He seems to be Eddies lieutenant, loyal and focused on delivering. But the on pitch leader role needs to be autonomous from Eddies reins.

This issue just cascades as other potential leaders and senior players will follow and just up their effort to emulate their leaders direction.

This followership issue also creates another perceived issue by having too many designated leaders/senior players/vice captains. This means no clear immediate decision making can be made in the tiny amounts of time available to do so when a stoppage occurs. You could imagine the vice captains and captain all looking around and seeing effort still being put in by others and then thinking: "right, no one else sees this needs changing, so I will follow and carry on..."

If my musings have any truth, then this points towards the need for one clear leader with the ability to confidently and immediately change decisions on pitch. Maybe Farrell seems the strongest candidate, but would he have the capability to spot tactical issues within the forwards game? Which would bring us back to a forward being leader again, which to me is not Hartley on pitch, but I am at loss who fills this remit right now?

 

[ncurd]

I know this will be an unpopular opinion but I don't think Robshaw was that bad a captain and I do think he raised his hand and led from the front on several occasions. He was let down by some poor decision making of his about last minute kicks but the rest can mainly be attributed to the coaching culture. I wouldn't mind seeing him as captain again and think he does earn his place as a 6.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Robshaw may be the best 6 we have now but given the chance others may overtake him by the RWC.

He certainly shouldn't be in any captaincy discussion. You're right about the coaching culture though - he was seen as Lancaster's man in much the same way is Hartley is seen as Eddie's. Johnson was never Clive's man, it's on record that he and other senior players regularly disagreed with him, including telling him to butt out during extra time of the RWC final. Woodward may be a lousy pundit, but to his credit seemed to listen to and empower his players. That's a huge difference. Can you really see Robshaw openly challenging Eddie?

I suppose I look at the whole leadership thing this way. When things were going wrong against Sco, which of their colleagues did Eng players look at and think "thank **** he's on my side, he'll stand up and produce a momentum changing play or some magic to get us out of this"? Faz maybe, not many others. That's another massive contrast with 03 team, in their different ways Johnno, Jonny, the whole back row, Robinson etc were all capable of match changing interventions. Lewsey not the most celebrated member would lead from the front by never easing in his intensity.

It will be very interesting to see selections and responses in the next 2 games. Struggling to see 2 wins.

 

[RugbyMarvel]

I would not want to see Robshaw as captain, I actually would have preferred Ben Curry to come in at 7, Underhill to 6, and Simmonds if fit to the bench...

I feel that with Robshaw, you can replicate his link play through Ben Curry, his general workrate through Underhill, and then both of those players would offer something more on top of that. Granted, Curry is unproven at the top level, but this is a prime opportunity to test him.

In terms of captaincy Owen Farrell would be my choice and then have a designated pack leader rather than vice captains. This is possibly where Itoje can have his leadership credentials tested...

 

[curtbob7]

Forget 2019, I wanna see Underhill cement 6 NOW with the Curries at 7 and Vunipola/Hughes at 8. Simmonds the bench option. Opportunities for Armand, Ewers, Sheilds, Rhodes and possibly O'Connor before the world cup would be nice too if they can stay injury free.

Back-row is still our biggest issue IMO.

 

[RugbyMarvel]

Forget 2019, I wanna see Underhill cement 6 NOW with the Curries at 7 and Vunipola/Hughes at 8. Simmonds the bench option. Opportunities for Armand, Ewers, Sheilds, Rhodes and possibly O'Connor before the world cup would be nice too if they can stay injury free.

Back-row is still our biggest issue IMO.

Need to just balance out the pack. I'd say the current pack only has 2 true ball carriers (Mako/Hughes). Not enough, so either a ball carrying hooker and/or a ball carrying tighthead needed. Then the bench options need to be more dynamic, so (when fit) the likes of Cowan
Dickie/Genge/Sinckler/Lawes/Simmonds could be the 5 men to come on to replace Mako/George/Williams etc etc.

 

[curtbob7]

Need to just balance out the pack. I'd say the current pack only has 2 true ball carriers (Mako/Hughes). Not enough, so either a ball carrying hooker and/or a ball carrying tighthead needed. Then the bench options need to be more dynamic, so (when fit) the likes of Cowan
Dickie/Genge/Sinckler/Lawes/Simmonds could be the 5 men to come on to replace Mako/George/Williams etc etc.

For the good of the country we could take Sinckler from Quins and sort him out like we have Genge..

 

[RugbyMarvel]

For the good of the country we could take Sinckler from Quins and sort him out like we have Genge..

Saracens went in for him in 2016 before he re-signed fit Quins, Sale are looking into him as a potential option. I'd expect he will leave the club though, I don't think he's enjoying his time there - but who is at Quins currently?

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

For the good of the country we could take Sinckler from Quins and sort him out like we have Genge..

Please don't... We would be in sooo much trouble

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Saracens went in for him in 2016 before he re-signed fit Quins, Sale are looking into him as a potential option. I'd expect he will leave the club though, I don't think he's enjoying his time there - but who is at Quins currently?

We'll be fine. The club are aware that in this situ, the players are more valuble than kingston, so it will be him that goes i think

 

[RugbyMarvel]

I don't think Sinckler goes to Tigers whilst Cole is there.

Saracens, Wasps, Bath would all be more likely for him

 

[curtbob7]

With Koch on his way (rumoured) Sarries would be a good option for him. Or he could stay at Quins till post 2019 then come up and replace Cole here and have it large with Stanko.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Need to just balance out the pack. I'd say the current pack only has 2 true ball carriers (Mako/Hughes).

Agreed,
Binny does the carrying of several players when he's fit, but we can't rely on him being there when we need him considering his long list of past injuries.
We're falling in to the same trap as we did with Manu in the midfield - plug in the next nearest option and hope for the best, until they're fit again, without really looking at re-balancing things/playing a different way.
The addition of Genge/Sinckler, and an increased role for George, would definitely help things.

 

[RugbyMarvel]

Agreed,
Binny does the carrying of several players when he's fit, but we can't rely on him being there when we need him considering his long list of past injuries.
We're falling in to the same trap as we did with Manu in the midfield - plug in the next nearest option and hope for the best, until they're fit again, without really looking at re-balancing things/playing a different way.
The addition of Genge/Sinckler, and an increased role for George, would definitely help things.

It is very much like the Manu situation.

I'd also add that Sinckler could do Robshaws role in the backfield, brilliant hands and can act as a link player (as Mako can also). That'll cause defences to worry, as no one wants either of those lumps firing up from deep.

Once they find the balance in the pack, the likes of Manu and Billy can be introduced as luxuries, and not necessities.

 

[EDT]

No need for England to panic. They got beat by a better team in a one off match. If you replayed that match another 100 times, Scotland would only win a handful of them. It is only so often that everything goes so well for one team while the other is having a bad day, normal service will be resumed soon.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Forget 2019, I wanna see Underhill cement 6 NOW with the Curries at 7 and Vunipola/Hughes at 8. Simmonds the bench option. Opportunities for Armand, Ewers, Sheilds, Rhodes and possibly O'Connor before the world cup would be nice too if they can stay injury free.

Back-row is still our biggest issue IMO.

I love the way we say the Curries as if they're 100% interchangeable.

Question I've often wondered is whether Binny would be better deployed as a bench option. Would 30 mins going flat out as a finisher against tiring legs be a better use of squad talents than 50 mins against fresh ones better able to deal with him? Would be a brave decision.

 

[EDT]

I love the way we say the Curries as if they're 100% interchangeable.

Question I've often wondered is whether Binny would be better deployed as a bench option. Would 30 mins going flat out as a finisher against tiring legs be a better use of squad talents than 50 mins against fresh ones better able to deal with him? Would be a brave decision.

An excellent idea for when Binny is fully fit again. Who would you use for the first 50?

 

[RugbyMarvel]

I love the way we say the Curries as if they're 100% interchangeable.

Question I've often wondered is whether Binny would be better deployed as a bench option. Would 30 mins going flat out as a finisher against tiring legs be a better use of squad talents than 50 mins against fresh ones better able to deal with him? Would be a brave decision.

When fit, and pre 2017 6N, Binny had become an 80 minute monster. Simmonds a much better bench option.