[2018 Six Nations] England Squad

[Vieux Talonneur]

He's right. We do have a leadership vacuum.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43234255

 

[Scotty]

Bench of

Marler
George
Sinkler
Lawes
Simmonds
Wigs
Teo
Daly?

I like the look of them finishers, id say nowell watson brown back 3. Brown off daly on

Simmonds on for robshaw.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Would rather start Wig than Care.

Would also like to see Daly at 13.
9) Wig
10) Faz
11) May
12) Te'o
13) Daly
14) Nowell
15) Watson

21) Care
22) Ford
23) JJ

 

[Which Tyler]

Slade? Over who?

Simmonds is a blessing, But only if it means lawes is out if the backrow and Underhill is starting (Simmonds covering the entire backrow from the bench)

Joe Simmonds probably.
After all, England aren't playing on Saturday

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

He's right. We do have a leadership vacuum.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/43234255

Lol wut? If the only reason Hartley's being kept around is for his leadership, and he's leaving a vacuum in terms of leadership, then why the hell is he still starting?

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Joe Simmonds probably.
After all, England aren't playing on Saturday

Gah, I forgot it's another bloody rest week

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

Gah, I forgot it's another bloody rest week

Don't blame you, not like Sale have any internationals missing to look forward to getting back.....

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Don't blame you, not like Sale have any internationals missing to look forward to getting back.....

I imagine when Dan Cole is missing you're painfully aware of any opportunity he might be released back to his club

 

[NDC89]

Lol wut? If the only reason Hartley's being kept around is for his leadership, and he's leaving a vacuum in terms of leadership, then why the hell is he still starting?

He is the best of a bad bunch I guess. Eddie can only work with what he'd got, and apparently none of our players our leaders.

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

I imagine when Dan Cole is missing you're painfully aware of any opportunity he might be released back to his club

How dare you Cole is a regional treasure.

 

[Not Mike Brown's Sock]

Would rather start Wig than Care.

Would also like to see Daly at 13.
9) Wig
10) Faz
11) May
12) Te'o
13) Daly
14) Nowell
15) Watson

21) Care
22) Ford
23) JJ

Not gonna happen in a million years

 

[Ragey Erasmus]

How dare you Cole is a regional treasure.

Does he treasure his regions a lot?

 

[Geordie]

We know we have a leadership issue....but what concerns me is the number of people in their with huge experience.

Hartley - England's most capped hooker, long term Saints captain
Robshaw - Former England captain, ex Quin's captain and hugely experienced
Farrell - Now a Sarries and England vice captain
Itoje - Much vaunted future captain etc...
Launchbury - Wasps captain? and experienced international
Mako, Brown, Care, Lawes and Cole - Vastly experienced internationals

So why are they not identifying the issues and changing mid game to adapt...

 

[ncurd]

We know we have a leadership issue....but what concerns me is the number of people in their with huge experience.

Hartley - England's most capped hooker, long term Saints captain
Robshaw - Former England captain, ex Quin's captain and hugely experienced
Farrell - Now a Sarries and England vice captain
Itoje - Much vaunted future captain etc...
Launchbury - Wasps captain? and experienced international
Mako, Brown, Care, Lawes and Cole - Vastly experienced internationals

So why are they not identifying the issues and changing mid game to adapt...

I don't think Robshaw (has kept his head down since loosing the Captaincy, probably doesn't need to anymore), Farrell (acts more like a Captain than Hartley) and Launchbury (only player to suss Italy's nonsence) are bad. It's just Hartley does such a poor job that it sort of trickles down.

 

[curtbob7]

For me I think its bloody obvious Care isn't a starter and plays so much better in the final 20/25 mins but if there's one team you may wanna start him against it may well be France. Move them around and tire them then suffocate them with wigglesworth and Faz at 10 deploying the Saffacens tactics?

 

[Geordie]

I don't think Robshaw (has kept his head down since loosing the Captaincy, probably doesn't need to anymore), Farrell (acts more like a Captain than Hartley) and Launchbury (only player to suss Italy's nonsence) are bad. It's just Hartley does such a poor job that it sort of trickles down.

Your probably right , but its disappointing that players with Captaincy experience, and vast amounts of experience, cant take charge when they see things going wrong.
That's the major concern.

Ps Your right about Launchbury, he was the one who seemed to take charge of the Italy rubbish.

 

[stus768]

Is leadership an issue in international rugby generally? Which international teams have great leaders who change how the team plays by making the decisions themselves? NZ? Ireland?
Every time a team loses you read the same 'they didn't have a plan b' comment so other teams have the same issue.

 

[Pieter Steph du Teague]

Is leadership an issue in international rugby generally? Which international teams have great leaders who change how the team plays by making the decisions themselves? NZ? Ireland?
Every time a team loses you read the same 'they didn't have a plan b' comment so other teams have the same issue.

I think Ireland have probably the best leadership structure in the world at the moment. In the rugby the 'spine' if the team, the 2, 8, 9, 10 and 15, are the main decision makers. In the Ireland team these positions are occupied by Best, the Irish captain, Stander, previous Munster captain and very vocal player, Murray and Sexton, probably the most controlled half back pairing in the world, and the 81 cap Kearney. They have leaders all the way through the team and in the key decision making roles.

Us, however, do not. Hartley at 2 and Brown at 15 fill the role well, both very experienced and vocal, plus Hartley has tons of captaincy experience, but after that we struggle. Vunipola and Hughes are both quality players at 8 but neither strike me as having real leadership qualities. The same goes for Youngs and Ford; neither really seem to have that ability to direct a pack like Murray and Sexton. Maybe that's a bit harsh on Youngs, he does a good job of it, but without another distributor outside of him, Faz for England and Toomua for Leicester, Ford really struggles and is not much of a leader.

 

[RugbyMarvel]

Hartley - Club Captain
Launchbury - Club Captain
Itoje - Often talked up as future Captain
Robshaw - Former England & Quins Captain
Care - Former Quins Captain
Ford - Has captained both Bath and Tigers
Farrell - Vice Captain
Brown - Vice Captain

You'd hope that's enough of a leadership base to work from.

Goes back to selection and training for me. England looked tired and didn't have the players on the pitch to get to breakdowns quick enough to be effective.
They also didn't form into pods when going into contact, I would have thought taking a leaf out of Saracens book and doing this would have solved the isolation issue.

If Hartley isn't identifying these problems on the field though, then some blame must lie with him.

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Hartley - Club Captain
Launchbury - Club Captain
Itoje - Often talked up as future Captain
Robshaw - Former England & Quins Captain
Care - Former Quins Captain
Ford - Has captained both Bath and Tigers
Farrell - Vice Captain
Brown - Vice Captain

You'd hope that's enough of a leadership base to work from.

You'd hope, but it isn't.

Launch far too quiet and not domineering enough. Fantastic foot soldier though. Contrast his body language with Johnson - Even early in, Launch looks knackered with slumped shoulders and breathing hard; even when he was in bits Johnno was chest out, glowering, inviting the nearest 20 people to pick a fight and getting ready to go again. Sounds trivial, but when the going gets tough, having those kind of overtly positive, self confident characters makes the world of difference. Blokes you can look in the eye and know they'll be racing to be first over the top.

Itoje enough on plate rediscovering form and cementing place. Never been convinced by the FEC tag. That hype train needs to pull into a siding for a while.

Robshaw proved in spades when captain that he isn't a leader. Similar body language to Launch.

Care. Experienced yes, leadership, no although he can occasionally grab games by the scruff in the last 20 off the bench. Not a senior lieutenant though.

Ford. Head drops too easily. Great player if others set platform for him, too often anonymous if they don't. Partly the 10's lot, but you rarely see him having the all consuming influence that St Jonny used to.

Faz. Definite leader with winners mentality and widespread respect. Surely Hartley's successor.

Brown. Has the attitude for sure. That's why Eddie keeps resisting calls to dump him for more showreel players.

Especially up front there's not a lot of support for Hartley. Experience yes, but mainly followers. In that respect I feel a little sorry for him. Think who the likes of Johnson and McCaw were surrounded by when they lifted RWCs. If they were having a rare off day or not around, players with the global standing of Dayglo or Read would naturally step into the breach without missing a beat, they in turn being backed up by Vickery, Back, Kaino etc. It was far more than just being great players. Leadership's intangible, but it's very obvious to see when someone clearly does / doesn't have it. It's the effect they have on those around them, the ability to galvanise, as well as think smartly and act positively under pressure. Don't have to be the very best players - St Jonny was rightly kept away from the armband - but do have to have serious mental toughness and generate respect from friend and foe.

This has been identified as an issue by the RFU, with Dean Ryan leading an initiative with certain younger players. Basically trying to address an inherent lack of responsibility flaw that arises from the academy system. Times article about it a few months ago.