[2018 Rugby Championship] Round 4: New Zealand v South Africa (15/09/2018)

[Nubiwan]

Any old excuse.

With his weak foot, the World Cup on the line..... Amazing self belief and clearly shrouded in the confidence he'd make the kick. That's what practice does. Are those commentators a little biased too?

Considering the illustrious Dan Carter (well before him Fox & Mehrtens) it frankly amazes me how poor the overall kicking pool has become in New Zealand. Barrett is fantastic with the ball in hand, but a shocker off the tee. Would NZ have won the game with Cruden at 10? I suspect they might have. Not that I think Cruden any better. Better kicker.

When you win tests by 30 on average it's no big deal, but when you lose 'em..... Ay caramba!

 

[Nubiwan]

duplicate apologies

 

[Steeler]

there was this dumb arrogant predigous for awhile in NZ when it came to the drop goal, I think the public saw it as a sign of a team struggling to score tries and they are crap they have to resort to drop goals, also I think it was because of Joel Stransky in 1995 WC final

all black teams always back themlseves to score more tries and win that way, so the drop goal never became relevant, but over the course of the history of the game it's proved it's an essential tool to have in the locker, so it's an absolute must Barrett or McKenzie can do it

 

[Nubiwan]

******* everybody, all the ******* time.

In the grander scheme of things, I might disagree.

If New Zealand wallop a team 50-20, then few will comment about some earlier key decisions that went their way, as in the end they simply ran away with it. Fewer will complain the refereeing decisions had much influence on the outcome. From a refereeing perspective therefore, and rather my point, it is always safe to side with the perceived dominant team.

I wasn't even going to make the point on this thread, but having seen some of the in match commentary, and posts on here, it appears I was not alone on my opinion on the ref.

Ironic then, how the NZ press has questioned the ref. What does that say?

 

[Steeler]

nubiwan can you give it a rest, every team suffers poor decisions and at times favouritism, you're no diffent from all the other one eye supporters that plagaue sport , keep the preaching to a minium, it's boring

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

They've said they talked about doing the drop goal, but saw space to the right so made the decision to go there instead. Your argument that we wouldn't be talking about it if they'd taken that option is a moot point, because nor would we be talking about it if they'd scored that try.

********. It's not moot because scoring a drop goal from that position is realistically way more likely than scoring a try. Course they could potentially do both, but given that you only need 3 points to win you would think they'd go for the easier option.

all black teams always back themlseves to score more tries and win that way, so the drop goal never became relevant, but over the course of the history of the game it's proved it's an essential tool to have in the locker, so it's an absolute must Barrett or McKenzie can do it

I agree with most of what you posted so far.
And it's not as if they can't already or they need to special training for this. Clearly not for this particular kick. They already train drop kicks to initiate/resume game and for the kick at hand, that is more than enough.
Ask anyone who's taken any kicking responsibility at any level: that was a very easy kick. All you need to do is shield the kicker and since you had possession that shouldn't be a problem.

This is not a 30 meter drop from a long pass like Sexton's. This was something that required a bit of planning (decision and cover) and basic execution. That is precisely why it's so mind-boggling. As good as the all blacks' execution is, their decision making is even better. Then this happens.

I recall a post here not that long ago about how the All Blacks had how-to-react procedures to pretty much every single eventuality they could face. Things like being forced to score a try while being two men down, what to do, what risks to take in order to maximize your chances. Silly stuff that "could" happen. The idea (which a lot top tier teams in pretty much every sport do) is for the players in tough situations to focus on execution and not on deciding what to do, or even second guess themselves. The rationale is that planning in advance increases both focus and confidence, therefore, improving your chances.
I am still not sure whether the issue in this case was the lack of planning or that someone did not follow the plan.

 

[Steeler]

i think TJ and the forwards might be at fault, Barrett, McKenzie both fell back into the pocket fort he droppie but as another poster pointed out he ignored them

think we just choked at a pressure point in all honesty, it happens, the fact is tho we shouldn't have been in that position given our stats and quality and home advantage + all the points left on the park from easy kicks

overall i believe it's our worst result in a long long time, it kinda reminds me of the French test series we lost on points aggregatve 1-1 in 2010 I think? some players at that time were just not up to par for the jersey, the worrying factor now tho, is it was our best first V playing, back then it was Stephen Donald or Luke MacAllister, but there's always a silver lining, you can see who the jokers are to the men, better to know now than find out 1 year from now in a knock-out game

as i mentioned earlier the only fix for the place-kicking issues is giving Damo a shot when he comes on in the 2nd half, other than that we will just have to put up with Beaudy until he comes on

Makes you wonder why Hansen keeps picking Jordie when we have so many quality fullbacks...Even Mounga played fullback for Canterbury so add him to the list of players that are versitile in more than one position...

honestly mate, i reckon marketting plays a large part, the 3 Barrett bro's all playing together - bit of a story that one

but that's a bit rough, the kid is massive talent, but too much too soon aye, he's learned a big lesson about test rugby this weekend, so he can sit down for awhile (hopefully not in a strangers flat at 5am in the morning with maccas) and contemplate what it takes to play at all black level

 

[Bada-Bing!]

8 tries conceded in two tests at home v the Pumas and Springboks have also got to throw up questions on the AB's defence. Wayne Smith being missed already?

 

[Kiwiwomble]

8 tries conceded in two tests at home v the Pumas and Springboks have also got to throw up questions on the AB's defence. Wayne Smith being missed already?

THIS ^

but also, Hansen just needs to pick a first XV and give more than one run. personally i think Nonu was a bit overrated....but he elevated to another level when playing with C Smith, they had an understanding that only came from playing LOADS of games together.

We need to manufacture that by playing combos together or if we cant then we might need too accept we need to play combos from super rugby.

even if SBW or ALB were deemed to be the best centers in the world (hypothetical) the combo of crotty and goodhue might be a better bet, sum of its parts etc.

Smith, Smith and Naholo might be the best bet because they know what each other is going to do, I cant count how many times aaron has broken down the right blind for us just because he knows naholo is going to be right on his right shoulder and given a few seconds Ben will be on his left

 

[mania]

relax. its all good. one game does not a worldCup make.
believe it or not ABs cant win everything. as far as games to lose go this one is better than a WC final.
im still backing the ABs to do well for the rest of the RC and EOYT and then onto the WC.
this loss should be taken for what it was , a reminder that ABs need to be more accurate to win.
i am glad we lost. it shows that we cant slapdash an opposition and still win it. Boks did ABs a massive favour as they are often wont to do in the way that only the boks can.
hansen isnt suddenly a bad coach. he's still got a 90% win record .
these players arent suddenly bad. theyve been part of this golden era for awhile now.
read isnt all of sudden a bad captain. he lead by example and thats all you can ask.
barrett isnt a bad kicker. he may have an off night but then who doesnt. last time this happened barrett went on to have an awesome season with the tee.
everyone relax.

 

[mania]

also the boks played awesome. in that second half ABs just couldnt cross that adv line not matter how hard they tried.
secret to beating the ABs? score more points and make all your first up tackles.
i've missed the boks being bada55es and i enjoyed watching their resurgence and most importantly their redemption.
now if the rest of the world would just take a leaf of of the boks book and lift their game then we'll have a very exciting EOYT and WC

 

[User1245]

relax. its all good. one game does not a worldCup make.
believe it or not ABs cant win everything. as far as games to lose go this one is better than a WC final.
im still backing the ABs to do well for the rest of the RC and EOYT and then onto the WC.
this loss should be taken for what it was , a reminder that ABs need to be more accurate to win.
i am glad we lost. it shows that we cant slapdash an opposition and still win it. Boks did ABs a massive favour as they are often wont to do in the way that only the boks can.
hansen isnt suddenly a bad coach. he's still got a 90% win record .
these players arent suddenly bad. theyve been part of this golden era for awhile now.
read isnt all of sudden a bad captain. he lead by example and thats all you can ask.
barrett isnt a bad kicker. he may have an off night but then who doesnt. last time this happened barrett went on to have an awesome season with the tee.
everyone relax.

Spot on, except for Barrett's kicking imo. He had the worst kicking stats for top tier nations in 2016 and hasn't improved since. He's hovering around 70% which is really poor for an international 10, even 2nd tier teams.

On the ABs going for a try vs a drop goal topic: it's clear that the ABs focus on high payoff areas of the game. In it's most simple form, scoring tries and stopping their opponents from scoring tries.
What makes rugby union a great game is all the aspects you need to be good at to be a 'total' team. And also being able to score in all the possible ways. The All Blacks aren't good at drop goals, and off the tee in general lately, so therefore they weren't good at scoring enough on this occasion. It hasn't cost them the last 9 years / 56 out of 57 matches at home, and it probably won't for the next 50+ games. They got caught out by a determined Bok team who outscored them and pressed them the right way, as only the Boks historical have.
If I was the All Blacks I too would have gone for the try because they were literally inches away from Ben Smith racing into the corner and the whole world cursing of another typical AB victory. DM's knock-on was a forced error. If they went for a drop goal and missed it would have been an unforced error.
Excluding Sexton's drop goal (absolute balls of steel to take that one) the other drop goals mentioned that won important matches were not at the death, therefore not an all or nothing option. They were typically near the end and gave the team the points needed so that they put the ball in the other team's court to come up with extra points.

That said, as a Bok supporter it's awesome to see the cat being let out amongst the pigeons in some NZers psyche about this loss I don't think the ABs would be over analysing this one though

 

[Brigantine]

[...] it takes the drop out of consideration [...]

In the end it showed a little AB arrogance against a side that had defended boldly, and you fellas have taken it on the chin.

Arrogance is the right word for it. Maybe complacency too, for the decision not to even train for it.

Though I guess there is a flip side - someone at some time decided it's better to spend that last 20 mins doing even more training for scoring tries and being 1% better, at the sacrifice of not training at all for drop goals. And then part of the discipline that makes them good at execution is they never go off-script from what they train.

That sacrifice might cost you the odd close game against the Springboks or B&I Lions, but you win 90% of everything else... and you could argue (but I wouldn't agree) that's the best we should realistically hope for. It really is something special the All Blacks have achieved in the last 9 years monopolizing the #1 spot.

 

[Derpus]

It's amazing the angst one loss causes. You are still far and away the best team in the world. Your second best team is the second best team in the world.

Can you imagine how it feels to be Australian! **** me.

 

[Brigantine]

You are still far and away the best team in the world.

Though now we're just one bad loss away from officially losing that ***le to Ireland.
The All Blacks' decline since 2016 is stealthily sneaking up on unwitting fans

If you want to see the angst one loss can cause for NZ supporters... remember 2007

 

[Derpus]

Though now we're just one bad loss away from officially losing that ***le to Ireland.
The All Blacks' decline since 2016 is stealthily sneaking up on unwitting fans

If you want to see the angst one loss can cause for NZ supporters... remember 2007

Well, you'd be a fool to think you wern't the best even if you did drop down to second technically.

 

[Kiwiwomble]

for me its finally a little evidence of what ive been feeling,

that barrett may be the best player in the world but might not be the best first five.
hansen starting to come across as very indecisive, even when we win and win well he swaps people around

its a good chance to talk about it while its fresh

 

[Derpus]

for me its finally a little evidence of what ive been feeling,

that barrett may be the best player in the world but might not be the best first five.
hansen starting to come across as very indecisive, even when we win and win well he swaps people around

its a good chance to talk about it while its fresh

Shag has the easiest job in world rugby. Barrett not the best 10? Move him to 15 and bring in Mo'unga.

 

[All Black]

Though now we're just one bad loss away from officially losing that ***le to Ireland.

Thats so funny.

 

[mania]

benders the best FB in the world. if barrett were to move i'd put him in wing....oh wait we have naholo and reiko there.
barrett is by far a better option at 10. whilst he has a howler now and again, with the tee, he usually picks up his game afterwards. remember a couple of weeks ago when he had that game that totally shut out mounga as a 1st5 option? he was absolutely sublime then. those are the kind of games barrett is capable of that no one else can emulate.
i still have utmost faith in barrett and the ABs