[2018 November Tests] England vs Australia (24/11/18)

[Vieux Talonneur]

You know people form various teams have been lamenting the drop in form of their lads in recent past. SA, England, Aussies. Heads are in hands, and all that has been done well in the past is forgotten. But isn't that the nature of rugby? (The ABs are anomaly in this but let's not get into why that may be). Sometimes your teams up on top, wth the perfect coach and squad, moral and belief are through the roof and all in your path fall at your feet eg Ireland right now. The next day the coach has quit, your best players retire or get injured, and everything changes. If I remember correctly Ireland stuttered somewhat when O'Connell and BOD called it a day.

Isn't this what makes the game exciting and interesting? That each year you can never be sure how the teams are going to perform,
Who's going to grab the momentum and run with it. Nothing is a foregone conclusion. Unless you're an AB fan. And that must be so dull.

I imagine the Aussies will quickly follow SA to get back to form. Change a couple of players, grab a new coach, blood some young up and comers, etc.

Hope for a good game today. Finish of the AIs in a feast of champagne rugby from both sides, of course with a England win.

Largely agree with that, although if you want to be world champions you need to work out why the ABs have been the anomaly and do things better. Also, Aus may find it difficult to be regular challengers if the state of their domestic game doesn't improve.

On the naughty Wallabies, I don't think there's a great correlation between behaviour and performance. Lancaster era Eng had impeccable manners but were rubbish. That "senior players" decided the sanction sounds like empowerment, but actually feels more like group think which many will, privately, find suffocating and resent......especially the night after a game. The last thing the game needs is more, dull, grey, uniform characters yapping on about "the group"; that sort of environment squashes creativity and stunts individual leadership. In Eng we bemoan the lack of leaders in the team, yet leaders develop by sticking their necks out, making mistakes and learning from them, not by always conforming and doing what they're told. People generally respond better to being treated as adults - frankly as long as players don't get into trouble, turn up on time and are in a fit state to play and train let them get on with it. Fings ain't wot they used to be.

 

[spartan32]

Largely agree with that, although if you want to be world champions you need to work out why the ABs have been the anomaly and do things better. Also, Aus may find it difficult to be regular challengers if the state of their domestic game doesn't improve.

On the naughty Wallabies, I don't think there's a great correlation between behaviour and performance. Lancaster era Eng had impeccable manners but were rubbish. That "senior players" decided the sanction sounds like empowerment, but actually feels more like group think which many will, privately, find suffocating and resent......especially the night after a game. The last thing the game needs is more, dull, grey, uniform characters yapping on about "the group"; that sort of environment squashes creativity and stunts individual leadership. In Eng we bemoan the lack of leaders in the team, yet leaders develop by sticking their necks out, making mistakes and learning from them, not by always conforming and doing what they're told. People generally respond better to being treated as adults - frankly as long as players don't get into trouble, turn up on time and are in a fit state to play and train let them get on with it. Fings ain't wot they used to be.

I would suggest that no one will ever be able to replicate what the ABs have because it is about more than just rugby.

Firstly they have access to pretty much all the Islanders and the Moaris and those of their decent. Anyone who's ever played a chap from that neck of the woods knows all to well that they are perfectly designed for the game. Just everything about them. Speed, strength, determination, foot skills, and they just seem to be made of steel. Having access to an asset like that is a huge advantage.

Then there's the national dedication to Union. From the word go every child is given a rugby ball and told of the honour of playing for the ABs. It's not unlike religion. Kids are indoctrinated, giving them a drive to perform at this sport to the highest level at the earliest stage. Their school rugby matches for 16 year olds are shown on national TV!! There is no country in the world that compete with that. Now the population of NZ is a little under 5 million, which is nothing compared to the likes of us, but when the majority of that 5 million ared dedicated to rugby perfection total number don't matter. I would suggest that the number of rugby dedicated people in NZ may be greater than any other country. And even if the numbers are not as high, the quality they produce throughout every age group is certainly higher.

Then there is the cognitive bias that NZ create. They simply get away with infringing more, and get less harsh treatment from refs. This is not conscious by refs, it's a biproduct of NZ being so good for so long. When they do marginally cross the line and manage a steal or a break that seemed impossible the ref assumes that it's down to their superior skill. Or when they do infringe and get caught they get punished less harshly. Again this sort of advantage makes a huge difference, and also is a self perpetuating one, as it feeds their wins, reinforcing the belief that they can do no wrong.

So in summary I think NZ will always be the team to beat. But they do play some beautiful rugby and certainly drive others to improve their games and push to the next level. Would Ireland be where they are now had they not had NZ as the target to beat?

 

[Vieux Talonneur]

Firstly they have access to pretty much all the Islanders...........and they just seem to be made of steel.

Except Tuilagi, Vunipola, Te'o.....

 

[Scotty]

I think Hartley should start. The team play better with him on and he locks down the set piece. If we are struggling for leadership to close out a match, then its a good thing to expose Faz to it now rather than later. Also when the injured players come back then there will a lot more experience around him anyway. It's funny though because not that long ago it seemed everyone wanted Hartley's head on a spike right next to Brown and Robshaw.

Shields has been getting slated a bit but considering he's only played 3? games in position against really tough opposition, I think he has done a pretty good job. Doesn't offer a lot more than Robshaw does, plays a similar quiet work horse game, only with 10 times less caps. That being said I really like the idea of a Wilson, Underhill, Vunipola backrow, seems pretty well balanced to me.

Unless its tipping down with rain, I don't want to see a lock at 6. I really like seeing Lawes and Itoje in the row together when they are both playing well, it will be interesting to see when Kruis and Launchbury fit into things when they get back if Lawes and Itoje play as well as they can.

Sinkler has seemingly improved a lot recently, though I think I would still start Cole and bring Sink on against tired legs assuming Cole was fit. Moon has been excellent though, definitely the second choice after Mako now in my opinion. Hepburn has been pretty average for me, Williams has been doing a bit better - both still third choices in their respective positions for me.

I agree that hartley like robshaw and brown everyone wanted them gone but tbh we trimmed robshaw and brown and it actually worked out better to keep a solid experienced leader in the 23.

For me Daly hasnt stepped up to FB yet and has alot to learn there but he is getting better game by game. Might even keep brown out by the RWC if he has a good 6N.

After these AI im generally quite happy, we are a strong without the likes of mako billy launchbury JJ watson.

We dont need robshaw back at all except for maybe world cup easy games to protect players.

Front row is a tough one for me but i think i agree cole coming back isnt the worst although i think sinkler and williams with cole third is my choice. Cole is a great scrumager although like hughes and hask he gives away stupid penalties.

Hepburn im gutted hasnt stepped up as hed never be a first choice but off the bemch to speed up the game he could be. As it stands mako first, genge second, moon third, hepburn, VRR, obano possibly fighting their way to second or third with experience.

With our best player out in every position we can beat anyone in thr world, not saying we will obv but we will challenge the best.

 

[spartan32]

Except Tuilagi, Vunipola, Te'o.....

Sorry I meant all the unbroken ones.

 

[Clavis Ruo]

Yep, centurian, ***le winner and world cup finalist. Absolutely stealing a living.

Slim pickings. If he was born a decade or three earlier he would have won as many caps as Matthew Pini or John Flett; instead he has more than Ben Tune, Joe Roff or Matt Burke.
Besides, being a centurion is obviously not a mark of quality anymore. Even Kepu has 100.

 

[NickBD]

Oh Haskel talks about putting his teeth back in today after his mess up on Sky a few weeks back then goes on to say Youngs and Te'o are world class.

 

[Reiser99]

Just realised it's Jaco Peyper...this game could go anywhere depending on how he interprets things. Genuinely have no idea what he will do for either side.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Fundamentals executed perfectly.

 

[Reiser99]

Perfect start.

 

[Don't Skip Leg Day]

Has Foley played 12 much? Don't really watch southern stuff.

 

[Reiser99]

Itoje needs to cut out those silly penalties. Too often we give opponents easy scoring chances. Need to make them work for them.

 

[Which Tyler]

Fundamentals executed perfectly.

Including the pass to May?
It was good enough, but far from perfect IMO

ETA, or was it May slightly over-reaction it? My stream cut me off from any replays

 

[LeinsterMan (NotTigsMan)]

How was that Aussie onside at the ruck?

 

[Reiser99]

Well at least Australia giving away easy penalties too.

 

[ratsapprentice]

Including the pass to May?
It was good enough, but far from perfect IMO

ETA, or was it May slightly over-reaction it? My stream cut me off from any replays

Maybe not the passing, but dominant scrum, blindside run from the base and two draw and passes. How often do you see that now?!

 

[Dai Yorkshire]

any score yet?

 

[Scotty]

Manu made it! Hes on the bench so still chance for him to fall off his seat but still we MIGHT see him on the pitch!

 

[Which Tyler]

any score yet?

10-3
21 min

 

[Reiser99]

Manu made it! Hes on the bench so still chance for him to fall off his seat but still we MIGHT see him on the pitch!

Nah, his number will come up, he'll jog onto the pitch, pull his hamstring and then hobble off. Total pitch time 52 seconds.

 

[TRF_Olyy]

Somewhere Andrew Sheridan is watching these scrums with a big smile on his face