[2015 RWC] Pool C: New Zealand vs. Argentina (20/09/2015)

[Shaggy]

So we've got 'Barnes is overly officious' and Barnes lets (the other) team get away with murder at the breakdown'.

Which one is it lads?

I personally thought he was consistent for both sides, apart from maybe one more yellow for the argies. He probably lets defending teams get away with a bit more than some refs. One turnover to NZ late in the game saw two players competing for the ball in a position they couldn't possibly be supporting their weight.

Both of these teams push the boundaries in defence and Barnes treated them equally 99% of the time.

Well I guess he could be overly officious to one side, and lets the other get away with murder, I suppose (Shaggy contemplates leaving it there, after stirring the pot) ... or he could be really officious to both sides (except at the breakdown), but let both sides away with murder at the breakdown.

I think he was consistent, and been around for a while now, so teams should be able to adapt to the way that he refs the games; the offsides could have been policed better (for both teams), but I don't see that the ref has to necessarily do that himself (maybe one of the assistants).

The worst refs are the ones that aren't consistent ... there was one from our neck of the woods, who was officiating at the last one (he's very popular in South Africa I believe), that was a bit like Forrest Gump's box of chocolates, in that you never new what you were going to get ... how are teams meant to prepare when the refereeing is inconsistent?

 

[optimuswolf]

Well I guess he could be overly officious to one side, and lets the other get away with murder, I suppose (Shaggy contemplates leaving it there, after stirring the pot) ... or he could be really officious to both sides (except at the breakdown), but let both sides away with murder at the breakdown.

I think he was consistent, and been around for a while now, so teams should be able to adapt to the way that he refs the games; the offsides could have been policed better (for both teams), but I don't see that the ref has to necessarily do that himself (maybe one of the assistants).

Lol you are right it is possible, but it isnt reality. He wasn't officious at all but was a bit lenient.

The offsides annoy me too - didn't notice this game being any worse than others though. Hopefully they can ping teams ea few times early doors to make the point.

 

[austingtir]

What im getting at is in this arg match Barnes didnt "appear" that bad (thats putting it mildly for me sorry thats as good as you lot will get).
I firmly believe the reason for that is because of Argentinas lack of pure opensides like Aust and SA have.
Ireland has problems with Wales with Barnes in charge because of this very reason imo.
And then you have teams like SA and Aust who are basically stacking with dual opensides. This will increase the Barnes effect on the game by a great deal. Call me crazy all you like but im convinced theres more to it than most believe.

I look forward to further this point the more we see of Barnes as the competition continues.

http://www.independent.ie/videos/sp...ecisions-during-ireland-v-wales-31079931.html

 

[ncurd]

So Barnes is a problem when the way he refs suits a team? Hmmmmmm just like every other ref then?

 

[austingtir]

So Barnes is a problem when the way he refs suits a team? Hmmmmmm just like every other ref then?

It would not be a problem if the stats didnt show a clear indifference to certain teams. Ireland and NZ can feel pretty hard done by with Barnes in charge the majority of the time yet we perform on average normally with just about every other reff going around. Hows that work??

 

[Shaggy]

Lol you are right it is possible, but it isnt reality. He wasn't officious at all but was a bit lenient.

The offsides annoy me too - didn't notice this game being any worse than others though. Hopefully they can ping teams ea few times early doors to make the point.

Well, there was a few early penalties, but you could clearly hear him say stuff like "you left me no option" etc; I think the game was flowed pretty well, and was pretty fast pace (evident by how the Pumas tired later in the match), and that's a little difficult to achieve if the ref was being overly officious/pedantic.

What im getting at is in this arg match Barnes didnt "appear" that bad (thats putting it mildly for me sorry thats as good as you lot will get).
I firmly believe the reason for that is because of Argentinas lack of pure opensides like Aust and SA have.
Ireland has problems with Wales with Barnes in charge because of this very reason imo.
And then you have teams like SA and Aust who are basically stacking with dual opensides. This will increase the Barnes effect on the game by a great deal. Call me crazy all you like but im convinced theres more to it than most believe.

I look forward to further this point the more we see of Barnes as the competition continues.

http://www.independent.ie/videos/sp...ecisions-during-ireland-v-wales-31079931.html

Assuming that you're correct, wouldn't a smart coach/team select their playing personnel to reflect that; the AB's had two loose forwards on the bench don't forget, and one replaced one of our locks.

You are suggesting that it's a trend in the games that Barnes referees, so why not play dual fetchers every time he refs then?

 

[ncurd]

It would not be a problem if the stats didnt show a clear indifference to certain teams. Ireland and NZ can feel pretty hard done by with Barnes in charge the majority of the time yet we perform on average normally with just about every other reff going around. Hows that work??

Because as we've told you multiple times none of those stats are outside normal statistical variance....you just refuse to listen.

 

[austingtir]

Well, there was a few early penalties, but you could clearly hear him say stuff like "you left me no option" etc; I think the game was flowed pretty well, and was pretty fast pace (evident by how the Pumas tired later in the match), and that's a little difficult to achieve if the ref was being overly officious/pedantic.



Assuming that you're correct, wouldn't a smart coach/team select their playing personnel to reflect that; the AB's had two loose forwards on the bench don't forget, and one replaced one of our locks.

You are suggesting that it's a trend in the games that Barnes referees, so why not play dual fetchers every time he refs then?

I agree I think we probably should when Barnes is in charge of our games. Could be something Hansens missing although he had the option at Eden Park and didnt even need it did he? (funnily enough Barnes wasnt controlling the game)...

 

[Shaggy]

Interesting read on Dan Carter's take on the match and tournament, particularly with regard to the refereeing:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/...cks-defence-struggled-against-fiery-argentina

 

[Boomslangnz]

NZ were rusty and it showed big time, but Argentina played brilliantly and I wouldn''t wanna be playing them in a quarter final if they front like that! I know some of you wished we played Argentina last but we don't want to be playing 4 big games in a row (if we make it to the final) so I'm glad for the easier run before the quarters. Hit form then, not now.

SBW was awesome today but backline didn't shine at all otherwise so plenty to work on. McCaw yellow was so un-mccaw, weird to see him do something like that but deserved it.

 

[nickdnz]

So my thoughts on the ABs:

Front rows: I've been very critical of Faumuina - particularly his scrummaging - but no complaints about him or Crockett. Both definitely improved the scrum (although a lot has to do with Argentina's own substitutions). Despite Woodock looking more and more like a 40 year old, and some pretty average scrummaging, his work around the park wasn't terrible - made 8 tackles in his 45 minutes and missed 0. It is the scrummaging of both Owen Franks and Woodcock that is the most concerning however, and I'd be willing to say Crockett probably should be considered our #1 loosehead. Hookers were both quiet.

Second Row: Retallick got man of the match which felt completely arbitrary for me. I thought he actually had a pretty quiet game, as did Whitelock (who I felt was marginally the better of the two). Vito came on at lock and certainly added some energy, although you would hope so.

Looseforwards: Kaino didn't provide the impact I think we'd have hoped. I still think he's our best 6, but lightyears away from how he was playing last RWC. McCaw had a brain explosion which was "a red card" according to Lewis Moody, 'the defining moment of his career' according to half the UK press. But it was uncharacteristically dumb in my mind and put the team under a lot of pressure. Fortunately he otherwise at least had a decent game on defense. Kieran Read I thought looked good, while can make no complaints about Sam Cane.

Halfbacks: Aaron Smith looked at time like the only one who was having any ideas. Very lively game from him - without some of the pointless and poorly executed box kicking which he can tend towards. TJ Peranara also looked good coming on against a tired defense. Daniel Carter kicked well, both from hand and around the field. I felt he was at time picking the wrong second receivers stifled some of the attack. Good he's not injured mind you..

Centres: Conrad got a bit of a rough yellow I thought, but outside of that I thought he was one of the best performing players on the park. Straightened well and ran with intensity. Nonu didn't have a bad game so much as he didn't find any gaps against a well organized defense. SC is dead wrong that people won't admit SBW had a good game. Barring one moment of poor decision making which he ran it instead of spreading out wide, it was a very convincing game from SBW. Even put in a nice kick - which you would think he would have been instructed to drop after his last outing. Provided plenty of impact.

Outside Backs: Arrgghhh. Most disappointing for me, even if none of them played horribly. People are *****ing about Savea, but the reality is he was just closed down very well, despite looking for space. My criticism was that I wished he wasn't trying quite so hard and stayed on the wing, I'd have back him to catch a Kieran Read forward pass better than McCaw...no he wasn't busting tackles. No one was. First he was too big and lazy - now he is too small and weak - I think people need a bit more patience. I have to feel for NMS, bombing that try has got to hurt and I just hope it doesn't hurt his selection chances later on. Ben Smith was busy - but even having plenty of time on the ball he wasn't able to do much in the way of breaking the Argentine D line. I thought Barrett performed well while he was on - providing good impact from the bench as usual.

 

[ncurd]

Not sure about defining moment of his career usual English press hyperboyle don't worry they do it to our own too. Just look at Hartley.

Now if he did it the final it would a been career defining on par with the Zidane headbutt.

 

[austingtir]

Because as we've told you multiple times none of those stats are outside normal statistical variance....you just refuse to listen.

New Zealand = P9 W5 L4 as of the latest victory.

Ireland = P13 W4 L9 Not sure if thats actually accurate could be another loss in that one.

But im sure you've seen all that and will continue to deny facts.

 

[ncurd]

You quoted the post do you not understand what statistiscal variance is?

 

[austingtir]

You quoted the post do you not understand what statistiscal variance is?

Well it should be pretty simple for you to prove that shouldnt it......


The mathematical formula to calculate the variance is given by:

σ2 = variance
∑ (X - µ)2 = The sum of (X - µ)2 for all datapoints


​

 

[Mcfadden]

A lot of negative vibes around this match, mainly because the All Blacks discipline and accuracy wasn't perfect, and Argentina really challenged them. If the Argies made a few passes stick and showed a bit more composure and ability to go the full 80 then no reason why they couldn't have won. But I'd much rather this than to whip a team by 50 points. How many times have we already gone through that in the past only to be knocked out in the semi-final? It teaches us nothing and is a catalyst for complacency. The reality is, that was our hardest match. Argentina can beat almost any tier 1 side if they have a supreme day - they have knocked over the Wallabies and Springboks. We will, hopefully, be better for this match.

I hope it has given Hansen and co things to think about. McCaw will be ticked off with himself for the trip. Say what you want about his "cheating" at the breakdown, but he almost never engages in that kinda stuff. Our next two games will be about trying out some of the dirty dirties, aka the reserves. Seeing Naholo play will be exciting. For me personally by the time Tonga roll around 1 or 2 subtle changes could be made to our top team. Also, can we confirm that there are no injuries? That would be excellent news. We just have to pick ourselves up and move forward. We won. No, it wasn't pretty, but we won, and we took things away from it. At least we didn't get tipped up by Japan.

 

[austingtir]

^^ Yep by the end of pool play some of the posters in this thread arent going to be so chipper I suspect. (and im not talking about the Arg or NZ fans).

 

[ncurd]

13 years ago when I was studying stats yes absolutely no problem now I don't have time or effort to study how to apply it correctly.

However to give an example when I was taught this we had 200 sweets we were trying to prove that there were less orange sweets statically than any other sweet colour. We had significantly less orange sweets than other colours. However once we applied the formula we discovered it was well with normal parameters Barnes being 2-3 games out on those stats he'd probably have to be on 0-1 wins to prove he's out somehow.

Plus as noted he's reffed statistically more top tier games as well with you so your more likely to loose them.

Keep saying facts though anyone who's studied stats know that what you have proves nothing.

 

[Colombia]

Argentina should have been further ahead at HT in order to win, they really needed to build a lead. They blew a 3 to 1 in the opening minutes and conservatively went for the goal-kick under the NZ posts when NZ were down to 13. Needed to maximise those opportunities.

Solid overall performance from New Zealand, but often struggled to get go-forward at point of contact and their defence was not sound. Looked beatable.

 

[otapouri]

Hard fought game, the AB's fitness and depth off the bench was the decider. Skudder gives me the ****s blowing a try but his defence is awful I don't think I saw him complete a tackle. We need big fullas on the paddock not midgets.