[2015 RWC] Pool C: New Zealand vs. Argentina (20/09/2015)

[Cruz_del_Sur]

What most amazes me is some posters level of analysis being limited to finding things the All Blacks did wrong, and the subsequent response of their fans.

The fact that people point only a mistake of yours doesn't mean their analysis is limited to that.

If that is the insight you get from reading the posts then i'm not sure what forum you're reading , because that limitation is only real in that parallel universe you inhabit.

People form all over the planet criticize rsa, englang, aus, argentina, ireland, france, wales, just to name a few, without their supporters jumping in in unison with a plethora of excuses.
What you call limited analysis is actually pointing out a very remarkable characteristic that many of your countrymen appear to miss.

But hey, maybe everyone else is wrong and that imaginary universe of yours is actually real. Maybe.

 

[Cruz_del_Sur]

@Shaggy. Thanks for the level headed response.

The world conspiracy theory is interesting ââ'¬â€¹butââ'¬â€¹ just because we are paranoid, it doesn't mean you guys aren't all out to get us ... seriously though, there does seem to a certain quarter of rugby supporters, that seem to take more pleasure in our demise, than in the fact that the other team won

I think you got this upside down. Factually i'll give it to you: people want to see you lose. But several of your nzers comments make it sound and if literally there was some malice towards new zealand or something. The statement is correct in the fact that people want to see you lose, but the key question here is why. It is NOT because people are out to get NZers or because they hate your and your country but because, whether people admit it or not, you are in most people's eyes #1 and any game where someone beats the best it is, way more often than not, a good game. We love the sport, regardless of our colours, and good games are something we all look for. Happens in every single sport.

If Australia or South Africa were the # 1, people would be doing the same with them as targe. The criticism towards new zealand is not personal. The responses from new zealanders, more often than not, are.

And just as you play the card "just because we are paranoid, it doesn't mean you guys aren't all out to get us" i'll double down: even if people are out to get you that doesn't mean the points they are raising are not valid.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If you claim there is a conspiracy against you the burden of proof is on you.

as for the France game, it was always going to be brought up, as there's a commonality between the two games, with Wayne Barnes refereeing them both

That would be a valid point if and only if Barnes had screwed you again. I, and i'm pretty sure i'm with the vast majority here, don't think he did. If we can agree on that, then bringing that up is irrelevant at best, trolling at worst.

You used the example of the french to relativize your case. Every country has examples like that, every single one. Most do not bring them up as often as your countrymen do.

Again, thanks for the response. Cheers!

 

[Irish boy]

Went to the game yesterday and was impressed with Argentina they played an all court game not all bashing shame they ran out of steam. Also New Zealand just had too much of the bench and Carter looks like he's lost a yard of pace but was still good.

On another point Hernandez was on another planet to everyone else on the pitch and if he stays in form watch out for the Argies.

 

[Colombia]

That would be a valid point if and only if Barnes had screwed you again. I, and i'm pretty sure i'm with the vast majority here, don't think he did.

I felt Barnes was more harsh on Argentina. He was overly strict on "rolling away", costing Argentina dearly in the first 20 minutes. Carter said Barnes had made it clear what he wanted from New Zealand at the breakdown before the game but I'm not sure the Argentine players had been made fully aware, the language barrier perhaps playing a part.

I wouldn't say Barnes had a bad game overall though. It's not an easy job, and he got most of it right imo.

 

[ncurd]

Barnes was more harsh on Argentina imo. He was overly strict on "rolling away", costing Argentina dearly in the first 20 minutes. Carter said Barnes had made it clear what he wanted from New Zealand before the game but I'm not sure the Argentine players had been made fully aware, the language barrier perhaps playing a part.

They should of been aware rolling way is one of Barnes' key areas for pinging people for. Just watch the Ireland V Wales 6N game.

 

[Kiwi_]

Has anyone got the details of Mariano Galarza's citing? He's received a suspension for 'an act of foul play'.

On the Barnes matter - He refs with tunnel vision, while officiating something like the breakdowns very intensely, he can often be oblivious to offsides, he also lets his consistency slip in his rulings with the breakdown, giving players no real indication of how to approach the breakdowns.

 

[ABs2011]

Jeepers @Cruz_del_Sur, you sure like a good old debate dont you Seriously take a look at your list of posts and check out the tone and content.... Unfortunately your posts read like someone with a chip on their shoulder and you are more interested in arguing than rugby. Just a thought, but I'd much prefer to read more of your analysis of past of future games, rather than your debating other peoples posts. Hopefully you don't take offence to my post as I genuinely would like to see what you have to say about the games as opposed to what gripes you have with other people posts. You write well and seem to know the game of Rugby so I'd be interested in your thoughts.

How do you see Argentina for the rest of the Cup? Did you see enough from them against the ABs to give you confidence they will make the Qs, or perhaps even the semis of even the final?

My concern for the Argentinian team is the massive drop off they showed in that last 20 minutes. Against the All Blacks this does happen to most teams, but it was very noticeable and it would be a concern moving forward. Perhaps they need to slow the game down a little more to combat this? I've posted my thoughts already, but I really think most teams in the comp will not be looking forward to a knock-out match vs Argentina. If Argentina can limit the playing time of their key players moving through to the knockouts, work on their recovery, and be fit an ready to go vs France or Ireland in the Qs I think they have a really good chance of making the semis and perhaps the final depending on who they come up against.


The other thing which Im not sure has been talked about, but I really think Argentina (in hindsight) made a big mistake not setting a scrum (against a 13 man AB team) when they got the penalty from Conrad Smiths infringement. Their scrum was dominant already, it would have been 8 vs 7 in the scrum AND they would have had a man over in the backs. I think they could have had a great chance of a penalty try or push over, and perhaps if the ABs were really stupid gotten them down to 12 men in the process. To beat the ABs at times one needs to take risks and I think they could have really blown that game wide open if they'd taken one there.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Has anyone got the details of Mariano Galarza's citing? He's received a suspension for 'an act of foul play'.

First I heard of it.

On the Barnes matter - He refs with tunnel vision, while officiating something like the breakdowns very intensely, he can often be oblivious to offsides, he also lets his consistency slip in his rulings with the breakdown, giving players no real indication of how to approach the breakdowns.

I saw a real problem at Wembley on Sunday.
There I was with the Mrs and two mates in Row 1. That means nobody in front of us just the pitch. Awesome seats, got to shake hands with Brad Thorn who was a guest speaker at half time and after the match. ;-) (He still scares me)
Wembley is mowed meticulously accurately. The lines of the mowing correspond to he tryline and the 22 etc.
So there i am in the 2nd half watching the All Blacks attacking inside the Pumas 22. I'm seated 7 metres inside the Pumas tryline which is to my left. WE can see the ruck on the other side of the pitch and the mow lines coming straight across indicated on four separate concurrent phases that the Pumas backline were offside by a metre every single time. Now when you wed that to a rush defence it accounts for a real advantage. If it wasn't for SBW being such a big prong that can take 2 or 3 tacklers and still successfully offload then we would have lost possession and been turned over.
All Mr Barnes had to do was look out wide and wave his arm at the Pumas advancing passed the last foot in the ruck, on any one of the four occasions, and they would have been obliged to drop back giving the attackers that extra vital split second. On each occasion I pointed out the offside to the 4 English chaps sitting behind us and they all acknowledged it.
Mr Barnes can be very sharp eyed at where he is located but he definitely has issues when it comes to making sure that defensive backlines stick to the rules, stay onside and get behind the last feet at the ruck.

Then there was the long stoppage where Mr Barnes spoke to an Argie player at considerable length right in front of their posts. I mean he was giving him a jolly good talking to.. I couldn't help but engage in conjecture with an older gentleman sat close by that if the transgressing player had have been in a black shirt there wouldn't have been a discussion amounting to 'having a word' it would have been quick draw McGraw and off to the bin with you laddie.

On McCaw; he deserved the yellow for a funny but cynical action.
On Conrad; he also deserved his yellow but good on him for kicking the ball away. If you're going to get a yellow, get it in style.
On the Argie who copped a yellow in the first 15 minutes... I still have no idea why he was marched to the bin. Seemed a bit harsh to me.

On the Argentine fans; they were very well behaved and a joy to listen to (their energetic singing) and to chat with after the event.
Downside; yes there was a downside, Richie McCaw was Booed when he was sent to the bin, and that was fair enough, he was Booed when they showed him in the bin, and that was fair enough, if you're naughty and you get caught you get what you deserve.
However, after the match was well over, and this was the only downside, McCaw was invited to speak on camera and it appeared that the 'neutrals' in the crowd in particular were vociferous in their Booing of him at this time, and I thought THAT was in very very poor form.
Say what you like about the guy, he was everywhere in that game, he was a perpetual menace at what felt like every important breakdown, he's a tackling machine and he has a 'presence' about him. I can honestly say that I would hate to play against him. At 34 he just shouldn't be that mobile or active. He was everywhere (except for a ten minute spell when he was noticeably absent) The bloke does not deserve to be Booed when he's speaking on camera after the match, that was very poor form.
He has been a brilliant captain, a leader, a great advertisement for the game and he does a lot of charity work. He hold the world record for appearances and he's a world cup winner. Hearing that crescendo Booing when he was speaking on camera left a bad taste in my mouth. It came across like sour grapes.

 

[nickdnz]

The fact that people point only a mistake of yours doesn't mean their analysis is limited to that.

If that is the insight you get from reading the posts then i'm not sure what forum you're reading , because that limitation is only real in that parallel universe you inhabit.

People form all over the planet criticize rsa, englang, aus, argentina, ireland, france, wales, just to name a few, without their supporters jumping in in unison with a plethora of excuses.
What you call limited analysis is actually pointing out a very remarkable characteristic that many of your countrymen appear to miss.

But hey, maybe everyone else is wrong and that imaginary universe of yours is actually real. Maybe.

What excuses?

What you are characterizing as New Zealanders making excuses was one poster. 90% of NZ posters on this thread have said the yellow cards were fair, yet it required 100 responses from others to criticize this view, the initial reaction and now New Zealanders in general. It's pathetic. This thread has literally just turned into a diatribe of how bad New Zealanders are - with next to no points on the rest of the match.

Seeing as you have made that generalization, please find me quotes from a range of kiwi posters which deny the yellow cards?

Criticism of Barnes isnt new - but if we're holding criticism of referees to one standard I suggest you check every match thread. With that said most have already said Barnes was fine, myself included..

 

[Kiwi_]

The Argie sending off was definitely not harsh, Aaron Smith took a quick tap after a succession of penalties and the guy tackled him after only going back a metre, straight yellow, no problem. One of their loose forwards was lucky to stay on the park 5 minutes after this when we were once again in their 22 with good go forward ball and he made no attempt to properly get back behind the advantage line and he made the tackle on our guy. Should have been another yellow for a professional foul.

On the offisdes, on the TV we didn't always get a good look at the defensive line which is a real shame, I would love to look at it further.

But overall, I felt Barnes had a decent game. Refs are always going to miss somethings.

 

[ABs2011]

Has anyone got the details of Mariano Galarza's citing? He's received a suspension for 'an act of foul play'.

On the Barnes matter - He refs with tunnel vision, while officiating something like the breakdowns very intensely, he can often be oblivious to offsides, he also lets his consistency slip in his rulings with the breakdown, giving players no real indication of how to approach the breakdowns.

I heard on the radio today that the details of the citing have not been released. I didn't notice anything untoward during the game.

 

[Kiwi_]

I heard on the radio today that the details of the citing have not been released. I didn't notice anything untoward during the game.

No neither did I, I'm racking my brains. I can only feel we made a complaint post-match, if a line judge had spotted it, it would have been addressed during the game. Perhaps they watch the game and have a citing panel? Not sure how it's done.

 

[The Jones Boy]

I'd just like to add that in the flesh Sonny Bill Williams is a monster. He's a hulking great beast. The league style rush defence suits him down to the ground and he drew 2-3 tacklers every time. The Argies are big lads and they threw themselves at his to stop him, which they did manfully, but he still got the offload away time and again and dragged 2-3 tacklers down with him. He is some player to have in your backline arsenal. With Beauden Barrett (lightning in a bottle) and SBW coming on it was a game changer.

 

[ABs2011]

I'm probably Sonnys biggest critic on here, he has his positives and negatives. He's the 4th best centre in the country, so there for he's there, there isn't another centre in NZ that would currently keep him out and justify it. I highly doubt we will see much of Sonny come the knock out games and he can write a book and complain to his mates all he wants about it after the RWC, Shag and Ted know his limitations more than anyone.

You can make half a$$ attempts to say Crotty or Ngatai should have gone, but realistically they are not better currently. I feel Aaron Cruden has played a huge part in making Sonny look some what decent during his time at the Chiefs and games with the ABs. With out him he's looked pretty ordinary.

I was with you on the 4th best thing before this game - not anymore though. I base that both on the selection choice to have him over Fekitoa but more importantly that fantastic performance. How are you feeling about him now? Re-evaluating at all?

 

[Kiwi_]

I was with you on the 4th best thing before this game - not anymore though. I base that both on the selection choice to have him over Fekitoa but more importantly that fantastic performance. How are you feeling about him now? Re-evaluating at all?

He did make a great impact, but let's not forget the Argentinians had been tackling for a lot of the game and were worn down, also it is Argentina, a good side, but not an Australia, South Africa, England etc. I would like him to front up in a tougher environment, or when the chips are against us, sure for a 15 - 20 minute period we were on the back foot against Argentina, but we controlled the rest of the game. We will see how he goes come the knock out stages, I think he has cemented 3rd spot with that great performance and it was exactly what we needed in the game. Good on him.

 

[Five Meters Out]

Jones Boy
On the booing of McCaw - that may well stem from how the English supporters him. I have one English mate who has moved over to NZ to live. On most aspects of rugby we agree and have knowledgable conversations. However on McCaw we just have to leave it. He'll begrudgingly acknowledge he's a good player, but predominantly he thinks McCaw is nothing but a cheat, who continually has the ear of the referee. No matter which ref it is. There is no moving my friend past this mindset. He is fixated on it, so I have just given up and circumnavigate it in our discussions.

 

[The Jones Boy]

SBW brings a physical presence no one else in the AB backline possesses.
He is best against a rush defence, League style that he is used to, employed by the Argies and the Saffers. It was a brilliant substitution by Shag. SBW created holes in the Argies line that allowed the quick 'uns to exploit. He charges hard and straight and he asks questions of the opposition tackling. His own defence is very solid.
Against rush defences he's my no.1 12 ahead of Nonu. Against sliding defences he's my no.2
He does seem very fired up to play on the biggest stage and he is an entertainer and a performer. His fitness levels looked excellent, there's not an ounce of fat on him.
On the hand, I wish Savea would put some weight back on, he's looking to lean.

 

[ABs2011]

He did make a great impact, but let's not forget the Argentinians had been tackling for a lot of the game and were worn down, also it is Argentina, a good side, but not an Australia, South Africa, England etc. I would like him to front up in a tougher environment, or when the chips are against us, sure for a 15 - 20 minute period we were on the back foot against Argentina, but we controlled the rest of the game. We will see how he goes come the knock out stages, I think he has cemented 3rd spot with that great performance and it was exactly what we needed in the game. Good on him.

Not sure I agree with that entirely. 2 things. 1) he came on at 45 min right? so the Argies can't have been that tired yet.. More importantly though, if it was a fatigue thing that made him look good, it is an equal playing field for the rest of the AB team, yet it was SBW that shone way brighter than anyone else.

Overall I think this is great news for the AB team. I was concerned about SBW going into the cup, and although it is only one game, and against Arg as you say, that performance is enough to suggest SBW is coming into form and could be very influential at this WC. IMO before he left to go overseas he was the best 12 in the world, if he can get back to those levels we are in for a treat.

I agree though, he needs to show that form and impact against OZ, Eng or SA for there to be real confidence in him.

 

[Kiwi_]

Not sure I agree with that entirely. 2 things. 1) he came on at 45 min right? so the Argies can't have been that tired yet.. More importantly though, if it was a fatigue thing that made him look good, it is an equal playing field for the rest of the AB team, yet it was SBW that shone way brighter than anyone else.

They had been making heavy tackles on Nonu for a large part of the game, as well as Savea who was coming inside, they were getting to the point of being worn out, not to diminish SBWs performance, but this is the type of game that gets him praise and hype, only for him to go missing in the big fixtures vs Australia in Sydney etc. So I'm cautious to do a complete flip on him, and even Conrad Smith started to penetrate a lot more in the 2nd half to reinforce the fact they were tiring. Aaron Smith was excellent and MotM for me, not SBW.

 

[ABs2011]

They had been making heavy tackles on Nonu for a large part of the game, as well as Savea who was coming inside, they were getting to the point of being worn out, not to diminish SBWs performance, but this is the type of game that gets him praise and hype, only for him to go missing in the big fixtures vs Australia in Sydney etc. So I'm cautious to do a complete flip on him, and even Conrad Smith started to penetrate a lot more in the 2nd half to reinforce the fact they were tiring. Aaron Smith was excellent and MotM for me, not SBW.

Yup fair enough. I agree, but credit where credit is due is what I like to think. Aaron Smith would of course have been a deserving MoM, I think the point that cannot be argued though is that SBW made the biggest impact on the game, which coincidentally or not, coincided with the ABs getting on top. For me his impact is the biggest talking point out of the individual AB performances and one that I am really excited about because of what he can potentially bring to the team if he gets back into form.

- - - Updated - - -

SBW brings a physical presence no one else in the AB backline possesses.
He is best against a rush defence, League style that he is used to, employed by the Argies and the Saffers. It was a brilliant substitution by Shag. SBW created holes in the Argies line that allowed the quick 'uns to exploit. He charges hard and straight and he asks questions of the opposition tackling. His own defence is very solid.
Against rush defences he's my no.1 12 ahead of Nonu. Against sliding defences he's my no.2
He does seem very fired up to play on the biggest stage and he is an entertainer and a performer. His fitness levels looked excellent, there's not an ounce of fat on him.
On the hand, I wish Savea would put some weight back on, he's looking to lean.

Yup, when in form I 100% agree with you. I would still go with Nonu to start, but its great to see that if Hansen sees a chance for SBW to make a mark early he is comfortable making the switch despite Nonu playing well at the time! Exciting times!