[2015 RWC] Pool C: New Zealand vs. Argentina (20/09/2015)

[Fard]

I think SBW needs another chance against Australia. For me that game was an out of the ordinary in many ways. I just dont buy that Giteau (or the rest of any other Australian backline combination) could contain him two games in a row provided we got our share of possession (the right tactics) and the rest of the team actually turning up/ not being stiffled by Barnes.

Problem is he likely will never get that chance which is silly of him imo (olympic sevens is a load of ****...). He should of been convinced to stick around until the lions tour he would be very useful against them.

Are you not expecting the AB's to make the final of the RWC? They should meet the Wallabies then and this would give SBW a chance to redeem himself.

 

[Kiwi_]

I think SBW needs another chance against Australia. For me that game was an out of the ordinary in many ways. I just dont buy that Giteau (or the rest of any other Australian backline combination) could contain him two games in a row provided we got our share of possession (the right tactics) and the rest of the team actually turning up/ not being stiffled by Barnes.

Problem is he likely will never get that chance which is silly of him imo (olympic sevens is a load of ****...). He should of been convinced to stick around until the lions tour he would be very useful against them.

He wants to win everything in his time as a sportsmen Austin, it's an ego trip for him. Win the NRL, win the boxing, win the RWC, win a gold medal.. The lions tour is not until 2017, so chances are he will be back for it. Unless he wants to go on a valiant crusade to win the League World Cup in 2017.

 

[austingtir]

Are you not expecting the AB's to make the final of the RWC? They should meet the Wallabies then and this would give SBW a chance to redeem himself.

Wallabies wont get past the semis. I only expect the AB's to make it IF we select more of our form players (problem is a few of those are still at home). Im sorry but guys like Woodcock, Kaino, Franks, Carter and Savea either need the biggest kick up the ass or dropped outright and sent home. We've still got a few chances for them to come right but I reckon times ticking and these guys dont appear to me to be breaking any records anytime soon.

For me theres a core group in the AB's that simply arent good enough to get us over the line unless a virtual miracle happens.

 

[Fard]

I must admit that after watching them this year they do seem very hot and cold. If fact more cold. The only performance that was great was at Eden Park against Australia. All other games were very hit and miss and you never seemed to know what team would turn up.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Are you not expecting the AB's to make the final of the RWC? They should meet the Wallabies then and this would give SBW a chance to redeem himself.

I'm not. History would tell us to be very very careful.
I am hoping that Shag has learned and remembered the lessons of 2007 and 2011. We don't have to win with handstands and triple twisting pikes where the runners perform complicated dance moves and evince the most subtle guile to run around every member of the opposition before dotting down under the posts.
Winning by a point at each stage along the way will suit this old codger just fine.

I must admit that after watching them this year they do seem very hot and cold. If fact more cold. The only performance that was great was at Eden Park against Australia. All other games were very hit and miss and you never seemed to know what team would turn up.

Well then you haven't been watching them have you?
We went up to the high veldt to play the Bokke a week after you pipped them in the last minute in Perth, and we fought long and hard at one of the very hardest places in the world to get a victory and achieved it. There wasn't much cold about that battle, it was hot and intense. When did your boys last get a victory over there hmmm?
Coming back to Sydney the boys looked jaded and I had a feeling we were going to be in for a rough time and I particularly wanted to see Kaino rested in that game to give a fresh Vito the chance to start. Carter was only recently back from a long injury issue and he didn't adjust well. Aussie played out of their skin and deserved the win but it was still a close hard fought match whee the missed picks from Carter made a big difference, not like the horrible battering you got at Eden Park

 

[ncurd]

It seams I can't help myself on this topic....which is ashame because it's rather droll.

I've never met anyone who doesn't have the upmost respect for McCaw we possibly don't regard him the best player (up tyre though) ever but then we all have different heroes. Now there are some retards out there who think he's a dirty player but I've been over that. The main contention seams to always be over the he cheats tag for some reason I've never understood NZders seam to take great exception over this tag. Now if smartcooky's definition is correct he doesn't but personally and a lot other people would be to disagree with that interpretation. If you are deliberately trying to see what you can get away with at the breakdown then you are deliberately infringing and then sorry you are cheatting regardless of the ref seeing it or not.

Now here's the point for most people that's perfectly acceptable in rugby when we call McCaw a cheat it's with admiration for his abilities in that area not because they hate him. The issue usually comes when people defend him regardless of what he does and turn a blind eye to whatever he gets away with. This is generally what leads hostility over the subject most fans accept he's a brilliant player but some can't seam to accept that he does anything wrong on the pitch. When people say he doesn't cheat my immediate thought is, do you really think he never deliberately does anything wrong at the breakdown? Because that's a thoughtline just as false as McCaw being dirty.

As for the word in ear anyone complaining about that is just talking nonsense all good captains do it.

 

[optimuswolf]

I'm pretty much done with the McCaw cheats thing. It always results in the same comments "every good flanker cheats" etc etc. I think it's best left alone rather than rehashed in different shades of grey. There will be no changing the English view of McCaw and it doesn't need to be changed, his record speaks for itself, in time respect will be given and his achievements will be celebrated even by his greatest critics, right now they just want to beat him and they hate the way he wins, he represents a NZ Rugby dynasty and era of domination.

Well this Englishman's view is that he's possibly the greatest ever rugby player, certainly the best in my lifetime. I remember seeing him for the first time in the 03 eng v nz game and he was obviously a huge huge talent.

Sure he infringes at the breakdown and has that 'what can i possibly have done' face that is a bit infuriating for oppo fans but none of that takes away from his performances.

I think we all saw on sunday how much the kiwis rely on him slowing down ball in defence. Argentina were recycling so fast when he was in the bin.

I wouldn't boo him personally but this is stadium sport, fans boo players. its not like they're spitting at him from the stands.

 

[Mcfadden]

He definitely does things wrong at the breakdown, ncurd. I read something on a New Zealand website today that mentioned he was the most penalized flanker in the world. People here must think we live in a bubble with McCaw but that's not always true. There are plenty of articles about how McCaw must atone for his dumb actions against Argentina, or about how he is getting ill disciplined. Above Robshaw or Hooper or Pocock. Some of that is getting caught out, because he has overstepped the mark (like any player does through a given indiscretion.) Some of that is because he's older now, and when he thrived he was younger and you never had to release the player in the tackle - I think his technique has worsened a little bit with age. But his work rate is phenomenal - and that is proven by the statistics. It seems like you're a reasonable guy, and so are a bunch of other posters are too, and I think we can agree that when the stats say he's made the most tackles, then it goes to show what we all suspected. The guy is a work horse. Don't think anyone disagrees there which is great.

My issue is the consistency of the cheater thing. McCaw isn't the ONLY player in World Rugby who is "good at getting away with it." Yet we only have discussions and threads on him. David Pocock has been better at it for a good while now. McCaw is still one of the best players in the world, but he hasn't been in that league of breakdown gurus for a long time. A few players around the globe have overtaken him in this aspect actually. My issue is, I've never seen a New Zealand article going on about how Pocock or insert whatever name you wish is a "cheat", but that's okay because he's good at it kinda thing. It's interesting that it's the first thing to spring to people's minds when they think about him. Why slander someone with that tag? They're a good player, there's absolutely no need to sully their entire playing reputation because on a few occasions they overstepped the mark and got away with it. There are also plenty of times that Pocock gets it spot on, and completely within the confines of the rules. Nothing to do with being malicious and trying to get away with something. You can't sum people up in one word, because it depends on the situation, it depends on the context, and so many other factors. And as I eluded to, people aren't consistent with the cheater tag. When they start calling other people a cheater...yep, I'll start to believe that it's a genuine philosophical point. But until then, it's just having a dig at McCaw but in a really back handed kind of way. Maybe not for everyone, but a fair few times on this forum I'd say.

What I think could be helpful is taking note of the time in a game (either when you watch it live or back on youtube) and try and be specific in posts about what a player did, and what that poster takes grievance with. Tags are so generalized and vague. I'd be keen to have a discussion on what the alleged issue is. I tried to do that myself when I mentioned before half time around the 34th minute mark Argentina were continuously offside. If someone else is seeing that differently, then it'd be an interesting discussion. But I've tried to pinpoint it, and I haven't just said something for the sake of saying it.

Unless I physically engaged in match fixing like what happens in Cricket, or I inject myself with some performance enhancing drug that is usually outlawed, then I'd be pretty insulted if someone summarized my sporting career in that one word. If I'm going to be known as a cheater then I just won't bother playing. I'd go to a sport that actually respects it's athletes and doesn't talk such drivel. Because I think every situation is different and nuanced.

 

[optimuswolf]

He wants to win everything in his time as a sportsmen Austin, it's an ego trip for him. Win the NRL, win the boxing, win the RWC, win a gold medal.. The lions tour is not until 2017, so chances are he will be back for it. Unless he wants to go on a valiant crusade to win the League World Cup in 2017.

To ne fair, we complain about sportsmen chasing money over achievement and here is a guy that is prioritising achievement, and making absolutely the most of his limited time at the top.

Can't wait till we're 55 mins into the RWC final and SBW and Burgess both come off the bench.....

 

[Kiwi_]

To ne fair, we complain about sportsmen chasing money over achievement and here is a guy that is prioritising achievement, and making absolutely the most of his limited time at the top.

Can't wait till we're 55 mins into the RWC final and SBW and Burgess both come off the bench.....

Yeah, because I'm sure he's doing it all for free. Nah good on him, he's a talented athlete and has seemed to have managed his time well so he can get it all done.

 

[kesh]

Just re-watched this game and Barnes was awful.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Just re-watched this game and Barnes was awful.

I don't know if he was awful but he wasn't good.
Also, he's not the only one.
I am concerned about the quality of the refereeing at the cup so far.
It seems like the officials have as much if not more nerves than the players.

 

[Colombia]

Let's be honest; people don't hate McCaw because he cheats, they hate him because he's good at cheating. All other teams and supporters would kill to have someone like that on their team. If McCaw was a Wallaby, the Australians would herald him a hero. If McCaw was with the English, the English would cheer his name every game.

...and Kiwis would hate him and complain about how much illicit play he gets away with.

In boxing terms McCaw's the equivalent of Bernard Hopkins, who is a great fighter but was constantly doing something illegal for that extra edge that the referee misses, delighting his own fans and infuriating his opponent's in equal measure.

 

[petite]

Let's be honest; people don't hate McCaw because he cheats, they hate him because he's good at cheating. All other teams and supporters would kill to have someone like that on their team. If McCaw was a Wallaby, the Australians would herald him a hero. If McCaw was with the English, the English would cheer his name every game.

i agree!! he`s great!! he´s a pain in the ass for everybody else . that`s hes job. and he does it so good i would love to have him in my team!!
anyway a really enjoyed when he was sin bined

 

[The Jones Boy]

As I recall Jon Smit was called a cheat by many fans around the world for similar reasons, he was a fine and effective player.

 

[Tony Manx]

As I recall Jon Smit was called a cheat by many fans around the world for similar reasons, he was a fine and effective player.

Over rated to my mind!!

 

[ajwffc]

Has anyone got the details of Mariano Galarza's citing? He's received a suspension for 'an act of foul play'.

On the Barnes matter - He refs with tunnel vision, while officiating something like the breakdowns very intensely, he can often be oblivious to offsides, he also lets his consistency slip in his rulings with the breakdown, giving players no real indication of how to approach the breakdowns.

All I can see about it is it was picked up by the match citing commissionor Murray Whyte for an alleged act of foul play contrary to law 10.4(m). The hearing will take place at 1030 on the 23rd of September

 

[Shaggy]

...and Kiwis would hate him and complain about how much illicit play he gets away with.

In boxing terms McCaw's the equivalent of Bernard Hopkins, who is a great fighter but was constantly doing something illegal for that extra edge that the referee misses, delighting his own fans and infuriating his opponent's in equal measure.

Would they? I'm not so sure; Wallaby Flanker George Smith was probably the best openside flanker in the world when he was playing (particularly early in his career) he was very proficient at the dark arts of the breakdown. Part of his career encompassed a period where the Wallabies use to beat the ABs regularly, but I can't remember their ever being a time when there was a chorus of Kiwis calling him a cheat.

The current Wallaby captain, Stephen Moore, isn't above pushing the boundaries through illegal entry into rucks to disrupt etc; just look at Bledisloe 1 in Sydney this year (a match we lost), but I don't think there's a huge number of us constantly calling him a cheat either.

 

[Kiwi_]

...and Kiwis would hate him and complain about how much illicit play he gets away with.

In boxing terms McCaw's the equivalent of Bernard Hopkins, who is a great fighter but was constantly doing something illegal for that extra edge that the referee misses, delighting his own fans and infuriating his opponent's in equal measure.

Rubbish, rarely do I see Kiwis complain about other countries players. I see nothing but mutual respect for the likes of Pocock, Vermeulen and in the past George Smith was highly regarded as Shaggy pointed out. Kiwis certainly applaud and respect a great loosey (actually any great player from any position), from any country. George Gregan is highly thought of here, as is Johnny Wilkinson.

Players that don't end up with respect are big mouths like Phil Kearns and Brian Moore who do nothing but stir hatred.

 

[smartcooky]

Yeah, because I'm sure he's doing it all for free. Nah good on him, he's a talented athlete and has seemed to have managed his time well so he can get it all done.

Any time in the last ten years he could just about have named his price in France, but he values the Black jersey above that!