[2015 RWC] Pool A: England vs. Wales (26/09/2015)

[nzlizard]

Great result for Wales, games was so intense, was stoked when Wales won though, really deserved.

 

[ABs2011]

Not being funny pal but home team , home WC against a rival team you telling me the AB would of made a call to kick and draw against Australia rather than go for the win??? Whatever

That's a good question and I guess we will never know the answer, BUT, I think if DC was kicking at 100% and given the state of pool play, the ABs would have tried to tie it up. Then they would have run the length of the field on the ensuing kick off and won the game. No seriously, I think McCaw tries to tie it up at that stage.

 

[easywin]

what I am saying is that experience should count... and I was in that game and so was Lancaster, and he was in an exact situation and like Wales won...did it with England and like my my team v him lost... doesn't matter the level, he's seen that scenario play out and let his team choose to lose... that is the key, they chose to lose... japan v south africa had nothing to lose, and so won, they will not win the world cup...England and Wales both have realistic, if remote (compared to New Zealand) chances to win.. that means taking 2 points off a Wales team that because of injuries will struggle was a must.. we didn't...if we we beat Australia now we could still go out.. if we kicked that penalty for a draw and beat Australia we would be through... and he has won a county cup for one kick...he should know

 

[ABs2011]

what I am saying is that experience should count... and I was in that game and so was Lancaster, and he was in an exact situation and like Wales won...did it with England and like my my team v him lost... doesn't matter the level, he's seen that scenario play out and let his team choose to lose... that is the key, they chose to lose... japan v south africa had nothing to lose, and so won, they will not win the world cup...England and Wales both have realistic, if remote (compared to New Zealand) chances to win.. that means taking 2 points off a Wales team that because of injuries will struggle was a must.. we didn't...if we we beat Australia now we could still go out.. if we kicked that penalty for a draw and beat Australia we would be through... and he has won a county cup for one kick...he should know

To be honest I am struggling to figure out what you are trying to say!

What scenario would see you beat OZ and still be out by the way? I know its technically possible, but just trying to get you to think how probable.

 

[shtove]

Dude, what on earth have you been reading? The majority of the English on here seem to be fully wearing this result! Man the f up? I think u just need to shut the f up

Hey, just trying to raise the hopes of England fans. Of course they can still win it.

Experts say the second crushing doesn't cause as much pain as the first - but it lasts a lot longer. A price worth paying, surely. Come on, England!

 

[Cookies]

England have just never looked like a side capable of winning a World Cup, not last year and not this year.

 

[Mcfadden]

Awesome stuff Wales. Won't rub too much salt into the wound, and haven't read other comments yet, but thought England were very lucky not to have Joe Marler yellow carded for boring in sideways about 3 or 4 times. Soooo obvious, no idea what the ref was looking at. Anyway, Wales showed a lot of heart. Ok yellow card might be a bit extreme, but it made me yell at the t.v, so I rest my case.

 

[chikwa chibwe]

Well well the group of death is living up to its name! After watching the first half I never saw this coming!

 

[smartcooky]

FYI you have to allow the falling player to get to his feet before tackling him which Watson did not as he fell with him...capiche?!

Well, not quite, but close. Its covered by Law 14: Ball on the Ground, No Tackle


[TEXTAREA]DEFINITIONS
This situation occurs when the ball is available on the ground and a player goes to ground to gather the ball, except immediately after a scrum or a ruck.
It also occurs when a player is on the ground in possession of the ball and has not been tackled.
The Game is to be played by players who are on their feet. A player must not make the ball unplayable by falling down. Unplayable means that the ball is not
immediately available to either team so that play may continue.
A player who makes the ball unplayable, or who obstructs the opposing team by falling down, is negating the purpose and Spirit of the Game and must be
penalised.
A player who is not tackled, but who goes to ground while holding the ball, or a player who goes to ground and gathers the ball, must act immediately.[/TEXTAREA]

[TEXTAREA]14.2 PLAYERS ON THEIR FEET
(a) Falling over the player on the ground with the ball. A player must not intentionally fall on or over a player with the ball who is lying on the ground.
Sanction: Penalty kick
(b) Falling over players lying on the ground near the ball. A player must not intentionally fall on or over players lying on the ground with the ball between them or near them.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/TEXTAREA]

If a player goes to ground to gather a loose ball, other players don;t have to wait for him to get to his feet. They are entitled to go for the ball as long as they stay on their feet. Furthermore, there is no gate (because its not a tackle) so they can come from any directions.

What they must not do is fall on the player on the ground. Most importantly, there is NO requirement to "let him up", that is an urban myth.

 

[MrTea_32]

Burgess did nothing to show he is ready for international Union and should not play in the remaining few games England have left! He is a proven failure........

Couldn't disagree more and like others on here have said after he came off our defence was weaker and that's when we lost it.
But whatever he would have done it won't have been good enough, you come across as a Burgess hater and would probably be happy with twelvetrees and barritt starting

 

[gaston le gaff]

We may now hear less singing of Swing low at the non ENGLAND GAMES, disrepect and arrogance never helped anyone!!!!!!!!!!! great game, well played Wales and very good reffing from Garces, this should calm a few forumers for a couple of days!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! France now looooooook goooooooood to goooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Tony Manx]

Tony, England were winning when they dragged Burgess.
Then they lost.
Barritt was left calling the shots in the English midfield, never a good situation. It was Barrettes stupid call that made for a rush defence where Watson was nowhere to be seen creating an overlap for Wales.
There's the game...

I do think it has long been recognized that Barritt has been included principally for organizing the defense! I think this is probably the first time that I have heard that Burgess may have had that job!! Strange considering his, against Barritt's, experience in league?

I have already remarked that it was a bad call by Barritt that led to the rush defense which dog legged and allowed the Welsh try. I did caveat that by saying Watson contributed by stepping in to tackle the centre leaving his wing a clear run!

Watson was clearly 10 yards behind the rest of the line as it rushed but still could have tackled the wing if he had been able and not stepped inside for the covered centre!

I did not see Burgess do anything other than be penalized and maybe Lancaster agreed and why he took him off?

Couldn't disagree more and like others on here have said after he came off our defence was weaker and that's when we lost it.
But whatever he would have done it won't have been good enough, you come across as a Burgess hater and would probably be happy with twelvetrees and barritt starting

Do not hate Burgess!! I just feel he proved not to be the ideal player at centre and this is also the view of his club!!

I have supported Lancaster whilst many have criticized him. This was on basis that he knows his players and the game! This match proves he does not know them as well as he should and also that he played the wrong people prior to picking the squad!

If England does not have better backs players than Burgess, and 12trees then they do not deserve to qualify!

One other thing, who did make the call to kick to touch rather than goal? Ford, as has been said here, or Robshaw the captain and scrum leader? If the former why did Robshaw not interfere especially after the debacle a few years ago?

 

[Zed]

I still think England (and the ABs) are the two teams that will make the final. I think the Wallabies will thump Wales, not only do they have a poor record against us, but their shocking injury list is now even bigger, but I think we will go down to England. They have a superior scrum, their defence is more robust, aggressive and structured than ours plus there's the home ground advantage. I'm not sure we'll be able to adjust to Englands playing style e.g I can imagine us shipping the ball wide to Folau just outside the 22 and Englands umbrella defence smothering the attack = turnover/penalty. I think it will be tight though.

 

[Kiwi_]

I still think England (and the ABs) are the two teams that will make the final. I think the Wallabies will thump Wales, not only do they have a poor record against us, but their shocking injury list is now even bigger, but I think we will go down to England. They have a superior scrum, their defence is more robust, aggressive and structured than ours plus there's the home ground advantage. I'm not sure we'll be able to adjust to Englands playing style e.g I can imagine us shipping the ball wide to Folau just outside the 22 and Englands umbrella defence smothering the attack = turnover/penalty. I think it will be tight though.

Good luck with "thumping" Wales. You couldn't even "thump" Fiji.

 

[Zed]

Good luck with "thumping" Wales. You couldn't even "thump" Fiji.

Hence the reason I don't think we'll win the world cup. I think Wales were very ordinary against England and with their massive injury list I think they'll struggle against us. They don't have Englands strength and structure in defence and I don't think they'll cope with our backline. But I do think England will cope with our backline and if we don't front up in the scrum it could be a tough day at the office for us.

 

[Harry Stottle]

Well that was pretty dire stuff served up at Twickers last night, two tries scored in a collective 53 points, sorry penaltyathon's are pretty boring.

 

[donmcdazzle]

i hate so much that a lot of this game was dictated by scrum penalties. Seriously there were more scrums that ended in penalties than those that didn't - that's crazy and shouldn't be what happens at all. Watching rugby from the 95 World Cup the amount of time from knock on to scrum set to ball cleared is bugger all, and there were hardly any penalties. These penalty fests are just rubbish

 

[The Jones Boy]

Lancaster picked the right team from what was available.
Come back Danny Cipriani... alas poor Danny, we knew his skills well.
Danny Cipriani has been left out in the cold when he could have provided much better cover at centre than Farrell who was displaced by the ludicrous decision to bring on George Ford at a time when you needed tacklers in the backline not matchsticks.
If you're going to drag Burgess out of the line, who happens to be a monster and a dynamite tackler, and the kid still had loads of gas in the tank (and England were winning remember) you need to put someone in who can do as good a job of plugging the backline, not Farrell who isn't cut out for that role (and he had a fine game at 10).
Farrell was having a fine game at 10 and DID NOT NEED TO BE SHUNTED TO 12.
Bringing on Ford was a premeditated substitution that cost England the game.
Burgess was having a great day in the tackle area.
From the time Burgess left Toby Faletau who had been fast asleep for 55 minutes started to come to life. He started picking up the ball from the back of the scrum and running at the England back line AND getting somewhere. This increased and so did the Welsh momentum going forward. Faletau is a critical component of the 'Welsh 'Go Forward'.
I'm not saying that Burgess was solely responsible for keeping Faletau quiet, perhaps he was a contributing element, but what I do know is that after Burgess was removed 'untimely from the womb' of the English backline, Faletau started to rove successfully and Wales were making more ground than they had in any earlier period the game. Jamie Roberts also started to get forward more as Farrell represents a much less foreboding opponent than the monstrous Burgess. George Ford looks more like a saloon swing door at no.10 than a tackler. He's a speed bump for the big lads looking to run an easy channel.
'Shag' (Steve Hansen to the uninitiated) never makes premeditated substitutions. He thinks about them as a 60-65 minute option but he doesn't implement them unless he feels they can make a POSITIVE impact.
Bringing on Ford gave England NOTHING at that stage of the game and it took away a champion tackler right in the guts of the midfield engine room.
Dare I make this important little point...
ENGLAND WERE WINNING WHEN LANCASTER DRAGGED BURGESS.

Second reason for leaving Ford on the bench;
George Ford had the monumental Brain Fart to push for the penalty kick to touch and worst of all Robshaw ACTUALLY AGREED WITH HIM.
Richie McCaw would have pointed at the posts in a bloody heartbeat, and anybody trying to argue the case otherwise from his team would have been given the 'hard eye'.
Warburton would have pointed at the posts in a heartbeat.
These guys have a BRAIN IN THEIR HEADS.
What was Robshaw thinking???
Sitting on his haunches like a dumbfounded schoolboy, mouth open, nodding his head in agreement with Ford.
"DoH" !!!!!!!! Yeah George great idea lets do it !!"
Just go and bash yourself on the cerebellum with a meat tenderiser for the next week Robshaw until some sense gets into your thick noggin' son.
That was a moment of idiocy that could cost England their chance to get out of the group and end their World Cup before it really gets going.
Farrell was kicking like a U Boat captain.
100%
Surely you either go for the posts, or you take the tap to keep possession and grind your way up and look to get central looking for better field position so Farrell can drop goal again as he had done effectively in the first half.
NO WAY should there have been the decision to go for the touch line.
Waaaaaay too risky when so much is at stake.
Wales are already 6 players down from injury, three prior to the game and three during the game... DO THE MATHS ROBSHAW YOU NUMPTY... the war of attrition to get through the group if you are on the same points as Wales is heavily in Englands favour.
A smart captain would have been aware of the bigger picture.
Robshaw is a fine player for his country but that decision at a critical moment was a horrendous brain fart.
Sean Fitzpatrick would have pointed straight at the posts.
Martin Johnson would have pointed straight at the posts.
John Eales would have pointed straight at the posts.
DANNY CIPRIANI would have pointed straight at the posts but

NO. George Ford points at the sideline and puts his case to the captain who MEEKLY agreed with the ludicrous notion.
Scratch the meat tenderiser and replace it with a sledge hammer.
Robshaw (Ohhh.... facepalm, facepalm , facepalm)

Andy Farrell.
That ginga minger Anne Robinson once said, "The Welsh. What are they for?"
Now we know.
But what is Andy Farrell for?
I believe he is a key member of the English back ground management team who brings nothing to England. He has a definite conflict of interest with his son in the team as well the likes of which would never be tolerated in New Zealand.
People are pointing the finger at Lancaster constantly but Andy Farrell has been his right hand man the whole way and England have continued to play with guys like Barritt who foolishly rushed the Welsh defence when that was the last thing the English backline needed to do and led directly to the Welsh try.
Andy Farrell is long overdue the sack.
Any backline coach would have pushed to keep Burgess on the park rather than have a matchstick come on at 10 and force Owen, his son, to face Jamie Roberts.
ERRRGGHHH !!
Big mistake.
Compounded by Faletau then coming into the game roving at the English backline.
Gatland knew Lancaster and Andy Farrell (Grima Wormtongue) would make changes at the 55-60 minute mark whether they needed to or not and he knew that at that time Faletau would get a chance to run.
Graham Rowntree earns his money for England but...
Andy Farrell needs to go.

- - - Updated - - -

Hence the reason I don't think we'll win the world cup. I think Wales were very ordinary against England and with their massive injury list I think they'll struggle against us. They don't have Englands strength and structure in defence and I don't think they'll cope with our backline. But I do think England will cope with our backline and if we don't front up in the scrum it could be a tough day at the office for us.

I think you're right.
Good call.
England are not finished by any stretch, they have a better chance at beating Aussie than Wales do.
BUT... Robshaw cannot make anymore critical errors with his captaincy.
Lancaster cannot continue to make premeditated changes at the 55-60 minute mark without reading the game. Burgess must play the full 80 minutes if he's fit.
Andy Farrell needs to be put on a small residual with a win bonus making up the rest of his pay check, but I'd be more inclined to give him a zero hour contract, the guy is rubbish.

 

[Harry Stottle]

The concept of Rugby should be running, passing and tackling not stopping the game for what seems to be no apparent reason, the most prominent man on the pitch and the one who (seems to want to be in) the limelight most is the referee.

 

[Kiwi_]

The concept of Rugby should be running, passing and tackling not stopping the game for what seems to be no apparent reason, the most prominent man on the pitch and the one who (seems to want to be in) the limelight most is the referee.

Instead of blaming the ref's can we take a look at your own teams performances. All I saw was killing the ball, not releasing, not rolling away, wheeling the scrum, crooked line outs. You guys are mad if you think the ref should let the game continue. It's your own fault and indiscipline that cost you the game. Christ, then you have the nerve to call the Ab's cheats when we play the best running Rugby in the world, such hypocrisy. England should've seen at least 1 yellow, the ref was bloody lenient if you ask me.