[2015 RWC] Pool A: England vs. Fiji (18/09/2015)

[SelimNiai]

If any Welshman says that England's singing over the Fijian Cibi was disrespectful just show them this...

I dont think the crowd singing is disrespectful. They weren't booing or jeering, the team faced it up front. However, weather conciously or not the coverage seems to shrink away from the haka/cibi/siva tau etc (going to wide angle, panning shots for a lot of it) and the microphoes seem to get turned down so you cant hear it

 

[TommiG88]

Vunipola's are Tongan

- - - Updated - - -

It was pretty clear he was looking for any opportunity to bin a Fijian

According to the IRB they're English.

After watching the highlights, it was sin bin all day long now.

 

[j'nuh]

But... Matawalu didn't stop a perfectly good try from being scored in a very kickable position.
The players scored their try nd it was taken away from the scorer and made into a penalty try.
What was the point in upgrading it to a penalty try when the try was scored?
What was the point in yellow carding a player for an offence that clearly didn't stop the try from being scored? He didn't engage in foul play.
It was an absolutely appalling decision.
It ruined the contest.

re: the penalty try, you can clearly see Matawalu gets underneath Tom Youngs, but it's not clear from any of the angles provided as to whether he's able to hold up Tom Youngs from touching the ball over the line. My suspicion is that he has succeeded, given that Matawalu is laid directly underneath Youngs though. Peyper looks like he had a better angle of what happened.

But regardless of whether or not it is a penalty try, the rules clearly state that a yellow can be given for an intentional offence, even if it doesn't stop a try:

10.2(a)
Intentionally Offending. A player must not intentionally infringe any Law of the Game, or play unfairly. The player who intentionally offends must be either admonished, or cautioned that a send off will result if the offence or a similar offence is committed, or sent off.
A penalty try must be awarded if the offence prevents a try that would probably otherwise have been scored. A player who prevents a try being scored through foul play must either be cautioned and temporarily suspended or sent off.

 

[shtove]

Good post.

I doubt England can fix the problems.

I think England's structural problem was shown up in 3 matchtime minutes - vulnerable at scrum and on both wings, Fiji allowed to do exactly what they wanted:

[video]https://youtu.be/6x2zg31fAZM?t=275[/video]

 

[valley commando]

I dont think the crowd singing is disrespectful. They weren't booing or jeering, the team faced it up front. However, weather conciously or not the coverage seems to shrink away from the haka/cibi/siva tau etc (going to wide angle, panning shots for a lot of it) and the microphoes seem to get turned down so you cant hear it

Looks like Ali Williams was right, disgusted by the crowd singing whilst Fiji did the Cibi, why were there no ITV microphones to hear the Cibi.

 

[McTallshort]

Oh shut up you tart

 

[Mcfadden]

re: the penalty try, you can clearly see Matawalu gets underneath Tom Youngs, but it's not clear from any of the angles provided as to whether he's able to hold up Tom Youngs from touching the ball over the line. My suspicion is that he has succeeded, given that Matawalu is laid directly underneath Youngs though. Peyper looks like he had a better angle of what happened.

But regardless of whether or not it is a penalty try, the rules clearly state that a yellow can be given for an intentional offence, even if it doesn't stop a try:

10.2(a)
Intentionally Offending. A player must not intentionally infringe any Law of the Game, or play unfairly. The player who intentionally offends must be either admonished, or cautioned that a send off will result if the offence or a similar offence is committed, or sent off.
A penalty try must be awarded if the offence prevents a try that would probably otherwise have been scored. A player who prevents a try being scored through foul play must either be cautioned and temporarily suspended or sent off.

Yeah. That's the point I was making. I'm not contesting whether it WAS a penalty try. I don't care about that. I was just making the point that the yellow card was not harsh. It's fully permitted in the rule book.

 

[TobesHodges]

I thought Farrell was far more direct in his play, he seems to have realised he needs to take the ball for more flat to account for his lack of running game..

 

[The Jones Boy]

Yeah. That's the point I was making. I'm not contesting whether it WAS a penalty try. I don't care about that. I was just making the point that the yellow card was not harsh. It's fully permitted in the rule book.

I'm contesting that it was excessively harsh, a sending off is also permitted in the rulebook, do you numpties think he should have had that as well for crying out loud.
If the idiot referee had have let play flow for a couple of seconds longer the English had the try scored, he could have had a word with the halfback, admonishment, thats in the rules, he didn't need to send him from the field and RUIN the game as a contest in the first 15 minutes.
The try England scored was in a very kickable position, punishment enough, he was overly heavy handed and Fiji never recovered from the diabolical decision as 12 unanswered points were racked up while he was off the field.
GOOD referees use their judgement, not good referees are over heavy in applying the rulebook.
The Fijians were NEVER going to win that game but it might have been closely contested for a half at least.
Totally unnecessary over harsh punishments will ruin the entire cup. (Along with the TMO nonsense.)
Instead it took the wind out of any Fijian sails and left us with a very dull opening spectacle until the Samoans entered the fray in the last quarter.

 

[j'nuh]

Illegally attempting to stop a try being scored is about as crystal clear a yellow that I can think of in a game. Referees nearly always give yellows for it.

The referee didn't ruin the contest, Matawalu did by doing something that is so clearly a yellow.

Oh and top international teams don't lose by 24 points because they conceded one yellow card.

edit: see that Cudmore has just gotten a yellow for illegal play near the try line, even though it didn't prevent a try.

 

[The Jones Boy]

What a load of crap.
The try was scored.
If what you say was enforced to the letter we would have 7 a side by half time in every international contest.
"Discretion" is a byword among the good referees.
Some discretion yesterday would have made for a much better spectacle.
Thats an undeniable fact.
Matawalu didn't engage in any foul play and he wasn't going to stop the excellent English move.
If having a word is gone from the game then take it out of the rulebook because if we follow your line then its all yellow from the get go.
The Referee does not HAVE to issue a yellow card and the try was scored it's just the ref was too quick to pull the trigger.
He upgraded to a penalty try which means a guaranteed extra 2 points to start with...

Lets see if you adopt the same dogmatic approach when you're a neutral watching a silly heavy handed decision that ruins a match as a contest.

 

[Tony Manx]

What a load of crap.
The try was scored.
If what you say was enforced to the letter we would have 7 a side by half time in every international contest.
"Discretion" is a byword among the good referees.
Some discretion yesterday would have made for a much better spectacle.
Thats an undeniable fact.
Matawalu didn't engage in any foul play and he wasn't going to stop the excellent English move.
If having a word is gone from the game then take it out of the rulebook because if we follow your line then its all yellow from the get go.
The Referee does not HAVE to issue a yellow card and the try was scored it's just the ref was too quick to pull the trigger.
He upgraded to a penalty try which means a guaranteed extra 2 points to start with...

Lets see if you adopt the same dogmatic approach when you're a neutral watching a silly heavy handed decision that ruins a match as a contest.

I would like to see either a YC or a penalty try. I have never seen it as right that a team suffers both!

 

[The Jones Boy]

I would like to see either a YC or a penalty try. I have never seen it as right that a team suffers both!

Absolutely.

 

[valley commando]

One thinks one might be a little over the top.....and biased?

Yes the ref

 

[optimuswolf]

I'm contesting that it was excessively harsh, a sending off is also permitted in the rulebook, do you numpties think he should have had that as well for crying out loud.
If the idiot referee had have let play flow for a couple of seconds longer the English had the try scored, he could have had a word with the halfback, admonishment, thats in the rules, he didn't need to send him from the field and RUIN the game as a contest in the first 15 minutes.
The try England scored was in a very kickable position, punishment enough, he was overly heavy handed and Fiji never recovered from the diabolical decision as 12 unanswered points were racked up while he was off the field.
GOOD referees use their judgement, not good referees are over heavy in applying the rulebook.
The Fijians were NEVER going to win that game but it might have been closely contested for a half at least.
Totally unnecessary over harsh punishments will ruin the entire cup. (Along with the TMO nonsense.)
Instead it took the wind out of any Fijian sails and left us with a very dull opening spectacle until the Samoans entered the fray in the last quarter.

I instinctively think it should be either penalty try *or* a yellow.

But The ref is probably being spot on. as the offence stopped a certain try it is a penalty try, and as it was a deliberate blatant offence in the red zone its a yellow.

 

[Willodell100]

Watched the match again and not sure what George Ford did wrong?

Decision making seemed very good and kicking out of hand was excellent. Missed a tough long penalty at the end of the 1st but otherwise his kicking from the tee was good.

Farrell came on did ok. Nearly fluffed the last try when he panicked and rushed a pass to the outside when we had a massive overlap. May had to cut in and did well to gain ground and momentum again for the eventual Billy try.

 

[j'nuh]

What a load of crap.
The try was scored.
If what you say was enforced to the letter we would have 7 a side by half time in every international contest.
"Discretion" is a byword among the good referees.
Some discretion yesterday would have made for a much better spectacle.
Thats an undeniable fact.

Do you have visual proof the try was scored? All the camera angles I know about were obscured. Peyper was stood with what looks like a direct line of sight to what happened. I'm assuming the ball was held up, hence a PT given.

We've seen three yellow cards given for cynical play in the 5m area from the tryline given this weekend. One in England-Fiji, one in Ireland-Canada, one in New Zealand-Argentina. I don't understand how you can't see that cynical play in such an area is a straight yellow card? It's about as uncontroversial as you can get.

Matawalu didn't engage in any foul play and he wasn't going to stop the excellent English move.

Yes he did. He came in at the side at a maul in attempt to bring it down. As a result, he landed directly under the ball carrier, probably blocking him off from touching the ball down. Doing it so close to the line makes it cynical.

If having a word is gone from the game then take it out of the rulebook because if we follow your line then its all yellow from the get go.
The Referee does not HAVE to issue a yellow card and the try was scored it's just the ref was too quick to pull the trigger.
He upgraded to a penalty try which means a guaranteed extra 2 points to start with...

Lets see if you adopt the same dogmatic approach when you're a neutral watching a silly heavy handed decision that ruins a match as a contest.

Refereeing consistency is important. In the vast, vast majority of cases, acting cynically so close to the line is a straight yellow card. If it was done somewhere near the middle of the field, discretion comes into play. Not when it's so close to the line.

And no, upgrading to a PT is not in itself a punishment. It's a replacement for the try that would have been scored anyway. The try that would have been scored was central; it would have been a 7-pointer. If you don't discourage players who cynically try to stop certain tries, then what deterrent is there to stop them doing it? If they don't do it, it's a certain try. If they do it, there's a chance that you can stop the try and get away with it.

 

[martinspoonboy1]

Well I wasn't far off, England scored over 30 points and Fiji struggled to get 11.
England missed a couple of kicks and Fiji missed a hatful.
The teams tried their best and England deserved the victory...
However, there were some very disturbing refereeing decisions in that game.
The worst of them being a Fiji try being disallowed just as the conversion was about to be taken.
It was the right decision but as Johnny Wilkinson pointed out when do you stop going back to reverse a decision, at half time, at the end of the game.
If the try is awarded then it has to stand. It's down to the referee to have a look first before awarding the try if there is any doubt.
That was a very ugly precedent.
Then there was the strange and indeed harsh decision by the referee to upgrade the legal try scored by England early in the first half from a try to a penalty try and then add a yellow card to a Fijian player for something that would rarely if ever receive any card. It left Fiji right on the back foot and while they were a man down England scored 12 unanswered points and there was the game.
Fiji were pretty ordinary, which is Kiwi euphemism for downright average.
At times England were excellent.
At times they looked like they were playing in molasses.
The best player of the night was Mike Brown a livewire performance from fullback. He was the standout.
After that Englands best players were the Samoan Vunipola brothers and the Aussie centre Burgess, those three looked excellent when they came on and England definitely went up a gear. Wigglesworth also looked much better than Ben Youngs at halfback on the night.
A very iffy bonus point try for England in extra time that did not look it had touched the line from the important angle from behind the line but it was awarded and there will be more than a few eyebrows raised in the camps of other teams about important refereeing decisions being swayed by the roaring of the crowd.

He played in Australia. He is as Australian as Dan Carter is French becuase he's playing in Paris.

 

[The Jones Boy]

Well i can see in this thread some of you Poms are defending anything and everything as hard as you can.
So have it your way boys, but as a neutral on this one, the yellow card on Fiji was a Harsh call and history will tell us that by upgrading the try to a penalty try, with it's guaranteed two points to follow AND then adding an unnecessary and heavy handed Yellow card on top of it, when the referee could have chosen to 'have a word' instead (which is covered in the rules), meant that the Fijians fell behind, and then went a man down, and then shipped 12 points and that was the contest over in the first quarter because of a poor piece of refereeing.
A very dull game ensued and then when the Fijians got tired in the last 20 the samoan boys came on and stepped it up a gear and made the pace more exciting.
You go ahead and defend the decision as much as you like if you're that insecure about your teams performance, but the truth is the ref stuffed the game as a contest very early on.
Fiji didn't help themselves by not being able to kick their own backside but I wonder if part of that was because for a while they looked like they were shell shocked and weary from the whistle stoppages.

 

[Maverick1987]

Well i can see in this thread some of you Poms are defending anything and everything as hard as you can.
So have it your way boys, but as a neutral on this one, the yellow card on Fiji was a Harsh call and history will tell us that by upgrading the try to a penalty try, with it's guaranteed two points to follow AND then adding an unnecessary and heavy handed Yellow card on top of it, when the referee could have chosen to 'have a word' instead (which is covered in the rules), meant that the Fijians fell behind, and then went a man down, and then shipped 12 points and that was the contest over in the first quarter because of a poor piece of refereeing.
A very dull game ensued and then when the Fijians got tired in the last 20 the samoan boys came on and stepped it up a gear and made the pace more exciting.
You go ahead and defend the decision as much as you like if you're that insecure about your teams performance, but the truth is the ref stuffed the game as a contest very early on.
Fiji didn't help themselves by not being able to kick their own backside but I wonder if part of that was because for a while they looked like they were shell shocked and weary from the whistle stoppages.

The Vunipolas are Tongan by decent as far as I'm aware .....

They are also sort of from Pontypool but no one wants to admit that ...